Author Topic: Prerelease 3.088 (Efficiency/RAM improvements, auto-explore mode, bugfixes)  (Read 9479 times)

Offline FrostyThePyro

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I know this is from 2 prereleases ago, but as this is the current thread I figure its best here.

Quote
-modules are now immune to area of effect damage

This has had the (presumably) unintended effect of making riot ships with force feild modules imune to heavy beam cannons (and though I havnt tested it I would presume also beam ships, grenade launchers and lightning shuttles/turrets).  And though it is nice to be able to approach larger concentrations of them with impunity (especialy if you tell the riot ship to go past it so the turrets firing one way and aproach with your bombers from the other way, or sneak a small fleet under the larger markII sheild module).


Offline keith.lamothe

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Has it actually made Riot-shield-ed ships immune to beams?  The Avenger uses a module-based forcefield and takes damage from heavy beam cannons (last I checked).
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Offline vonduus

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On the topic of heavy turrets: Am I the only person who feels that the heavy beam turret is a major change to the game? And not necessarily to the better? I see no one else complaining, which I find odd. In earlier pre-releases they were a major pita, now they are nerfed a bit, so that you seldom meet more than three at the same planet, and they are in effect just a minor pita. But a pita nonetheless. So much, that I am contemplating not to update my 3.060 version of the game, the one I am using for multiplayer.

I have tried the heavies out now in several different setups, against different foes, on different maps, with different bonus ships, etc. Always I reach the same conclusion: The heavy beam turret is a piece of superior weaponry, that is a real joy to have in your own inventory. But in the hands of the enemy, it is a source of constant frustration. I have abandoned several games, simply because it is not funny to get your fleet butchered by standard heavies on a standard no-mark planet with otherwise standard defenders. When I try to take out a mkIV planet with mkII ships, I expect to get butchered. When I try to take out a standard no-mark planet I only expect to get butchered if I make major mistakes, so either I am all of a sudden making a lot of bad decisions, or something has changed to the basic game balance. I really don't believe that I have gone from a relatively decent commander to a total failure overnight, rather I think the basic game balance is flawed, due to the introduction of heavy beam turrets.

This may all be because I haven't yet come up with a useful tactic against heavies. Or rather, I have developed a tactic, but this tactic simply isn't funny, and what is worse: It is forcing me to always approach the game in more or less the same way: I now buy dreadnoughts, as many as possible as early as possible, as this ship (together with bombards and beam frigates and perhaps a few other long-range types) is the only means to take out the heavies without too heavy casualties. If anyone else has found a useful tactic, that does not involve slow long-range units, please tell me about them. For the time being I feel very much like the generals in WWI: there simply is nothing to do against this new weapon, except waiting for the technical guys to invent something like the tank to get past the machine-guns. This, or accepting losses on a scale unprecedented by the earlier versions of this game. So far I live with the losses, and as a consequence I have allowed myself a free handicap of +30%. I don't consider this positive handicap as cheating (as I have done until now) because the game has turned from balanced to unbalanced, and this is one way of somehow rebalancing things. What this positive handicap does not solve, though is the immmmense frustration, that accompanies the game nowadays. Today I actually decided that I didn't want to play a game of aiwar, as it is not funny to fight all those heavy turrets. Like when I decided that the devourer golem is not funny except after the first few encounters, I simply turned it off, except that I cannot turn off heavy turrets. So as a result I have from today stopped playing aiwar prerelease versions. But I loved experimenting with aiwar until recently, therefore: please take this complaint seriously. I still play the game, though, I have a 3.060 version, and that one is still a joy to play. Perhaps I shall just stay with 3.060, and abandon all the coming goodies? Hopefully not.

I must admit that I was a proponent of heavies in the first place. After putting up all the different turrets available in the game, I felt that something was missing: A super-turret. Now I have got one, and it performs almost exactly as I expected it to do. Except that in my naiveté I didn't expect the enemy to get access to this weapon. And this is what spoils the fun now: The ai is using, actually over-using, the heavies. Still is, after the 3.087 nerf.

If I encounter two planets, one with an Ion Cannon and no turrets, the other with no Ion Cannon but three Heavy Beam Turrets, I am no more in doubt: All else being equal I would always choose to attack the planet with the Ion Cannon, as it is an overall lesser threat than the one with three heavies. In effect the heavies have dwarfed the Ion Cannon; was that the intention with this new unit? In an early game, you know that a rush for an Ion Cannon will give you losses, even heavy losses, but you also know, that once it is killed, it stays dead. Not so with heavies: I can kill the same turret several times over, because the ai somehow manages to rebuild it, even when I bring along lots of Clean-up Drones. In one situation (before the nerf) I attacked a planet with 17 heavies, and after I took out 10 of them, I saw in the planetary summary, that I still needed to take out another 20 (?!?).  I have no idea how many turrets I killed during that whole battle, perhaps 50? This is somewhat reduced now after the nerf, but not enough: Yesterday I took out a planet, nominally equipped with three heavy turrets, after taking out six heavy turrets in all. And I even brought 20 Clean-up Drones along with me.

The best solution to this problem is to deny the ai any use of heavies. I believe the ai has access to weapons that humans have not, so why not the other way around? The next-best solution is to deny the ai the right to rebuild heavies. The third-best solution is to make heavy turrets a lobby option, like astro trains or mining golems and the like. So I can choose not to play with them.

The worst solution is to just implement the heavies as is in the official release. In that case I will not upgrade my 'classic' install, the one I use for mp with a friend. And he agrees with me after trying out the new weapons: If the heavy beam turret goes official in the state it is in now, none of us will upgrade our games, both of us will stay with version 3.060. This can be considered a threat (no smiley).



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Offline keith.lamothe

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"AI Heavy Beam Turrets Still Frustrating" would have sufficed :)  But if it makes you feel better to put it in more words, I don't mind.

Would it be ok if no AI system had more than 1 cannon, and MkIII planets could only have a MkI, and MkIV-Core-Home planets could only have a MkII?  Or some combination thereof.

Worst to worst I can just have the AI not build them at all, I just figured that would be missing an opportunity.
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Offline orzelek

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I said that at some point and I will repeat it - they should be our weapon from human scientists that AI didn't replicate yet. Heavy turrets are powerful - when you don't have anything long ranged there is simply no way to destroy one without at least some loses - this is mainly because this turrets are only weapon now I think that represent focused fire power that can kill most things in few shots. And there are things like AI force fields that can hide turret like that and it can cause heavy casualties before you can take the FF down.

TBH I had an impression from the start that they would be human only toys :D

Offline x4000

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You know, if they are that powerful and human-only, that breaks the game in an entirely different way. Is a player a fool not to unlock heavy cannons? If so, then these need a nerf all around. If it changes things that much on the side of the ai, then it is bound to make the game way too easy of defense for the human players, too.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Actually one of the earlier complaints was that they weren't worth the knowledge for the number of turrets you got for them.  I adjusted the knowledge cost for that.

The reason the AI is such a pain with them is that it doesn't have the ship cap.  I adjusted it so the AI would only get so many max per system but it still gets WAY more total than the human ever could.

So I could see limiting them more to the numeric range of ion cannons for AI use.  Though you have to keep in mind that Ion Cannons have infinite range and fire once per second, whereas the heavy beam cannons are much more limited in range and fire once every 4-5 seconds.
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Offline FrostyThePyro

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Has it actually made Riot-shield-ed ships immune to beams?  The Avenger uses a module-based forcefield and takes damage from heavy beam cannons (last I checked).
I beleive so, I noticed it a few sesions ago when I had a pair of riot ships fighting a heavy beem turret and they werent taking any damage.  I will try and replicate it and make a savegame if that will help.  But the ship was distinctly getting hit by the beem, and there were no health bars (inidcating module damage).

Offline Doddler

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The difficulty that the heavy beam cannons brings varies drastically depending on what kind of fleet you have.  When my fleet is composed of strong, high health ships, like the primary 3 ship types plus I dunno, armor, space tanks, etc, even high level beam cannons aren't really an issue.  You lose maybe a ship or two to a beam hit but that's easy enough to ignore.  High level bombers for example have enough HP that even Mk III beam cannon can at best take 1 or 2 down at a time.  Taking 50k-250k penetrating beam attacks is hardly an issue if your fleet is floating around with ships with 100k~200k health.

But not all ships have such high HP, in fact HP varies immensely.  If you use a lot of specialty type ships, many of them barely break 10k health even with Mk III, including, but not necessarially limited to, Space Planes, Deflectors, Eye Bot, Infiltrator, Laser Gatling, and Sniper.  Those kinds of ships take insane damage.  But honestly it's not so different from electric attacks.  You'd get just as annoyed sending your infinite mass of space plances versus 10 Mk III lightning towers.  Actually they'd probably be better off with the beam cannons.

I disagree with taking heavy beam cannons away from the AI, but AoE attacks is always tricky business to balance in a game like this (even if this isn't AoE because it involves distribution of damage across ships rather than flat damage to all ships).  Perhaps, considering beam cannons fire multiple beams at once, that a beam instead of penetrating a target would end after killing that target?  So a Mk IV beam cannon could only take out 50 ships in a single shot, for example.

Of course, that's kind of a dummy fix, if people kept their high HP ships/starships in front, the beams would be unable to strike their weaker ships.  They're better to deal with than large groups of beam frigates or beam starships, which don't distribute their damage and hit everything.  Only time I've had a big problem with heavy beam cannons is from that absurd Avenger, with his 4 million damage of beam penetration with each shot.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 06:40:15 pm by Doddler »

Offline vonduus

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"AI Heavy Beam Turrets Still Frustrating" would have sufficed :)  But if it makes you feel better to put it in more words, I don't mind.

Yeah, sorry for all the words, but actually I think you are wrong: Had I just written "AI Heavy Beam Turrets Still Very Very Frustrating" you might have thought "Oh just another  complainer, who doesn't bother to tell me exactly what the problem is." But yes, it makes me feel better to use many words, firstly because I am frustrated, and complaining is a well known way of taking off mental pressure, and secondly it sometimes clears my mind so that I can actually spell out some constructive criticism, and not only formulate negative rants. 

I know you want square logical rules to implement in the game, but I want a well-rounded game experience. From my point of view, this means that I am allowed to use a lot of words in an attempt to formulate what I want, while it is your job to convert all those words into some logic formula, that a computer can understand. You are the developer, remember?  ;) You got the power to ignore my complaints, which is another reason why I may have to use a lot of words - to try to get my point through, without offending you, or without, for the sake of clarity, to propose a clear-cut rule, that I really do not want implemented, because what I want is perhaps not so clear-cut. I did my share of formal logic back at university, so I know quite a lot of the limitations of logic. Enough to know that very often you'll have to use more than one rule to deal with a complex situation. Logic is square, but life is round. ;)

I'll repeat my suggestions, as they probably got lost in all the words:

- deny the ai any use of heavies (thanks orzelek). If this is considered too drastic, then

- deny the ai the rights to repair heavies.

And, to go along with your suggestions:

- make a cap per planet for the ai

- make sure at least half the planets (or some other ratio, see following) have no heavy turrets.

So I cannot really tell if a cap of, say, one turret per planet would make my day. Probably would, to an extent. What would be the best, I believe, is if the ai as a rule does NOT build heavy turrets on most planets. Take the Ion Cannon as a model: The Ion Cannon is not a rare piece of equipment, but in most AIWar games you have a choice between taking out the planet with the Ion Cannon or taking out some other nearby planet without one, because there are plenty of planets without an Ion Cannon. Same considerations should be applicable to heavies: I don't mind if I sometimes encounter a planet with five or more turrets, as long as this case is a semi-rare exception (15 that grows to 20 after taking out 10 is an abomination, though, even as an exception). I have abandoned three games, on three different seeds, and all three games ended because I was faced with multiple heavies on all adjacent planets.

@ Doddler: When heavies were introduced I was in the middle of a great saved game, and I just took them out without really noticing they were there. What I am complaining of is new games, where I every time run into large clusters of heavies before I get a decent fleet. Typically I conquer three planets, and then get stuck. Which means I can upgrade at most two ship types to mkIII.

See, again a lot of words. But I believe we are getting somewhere, aren't we? Would you have understood, if I instead had just written:.

Treat heavy turrets like Ion Cannons, except for the cap per planet.

 ;)
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Offline FrostyThePyro

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Here is the save file, the planet to the left of the home planet has 3 heavy beam canons (mark 3) all of which are shooting at a sheilded riot ship.  The ship is takeing no damage, nor is the sheild module.  The save was made on prerelease 3.087

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FSL5MOJC

Hope it helps

Offline Kjara

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Honestly, I still feel that perhaps the beam cannons should be treated as about a tier higher than they are(moved up one turret bin), and/or their proportion should be reduced.  Taking them away from the ai completely just feels like a waste, but they are quite a bit more common on the ai side still then they should be. 

Going with hard caps with the current proportions just means that every planet will have the hard cap after a certain point(not knowing exactly what the hard cap is, but there seem to be a reasonable number on even mkII planets pretty quickly on the diff I generally play at).  I'd much rather see them start out much rarer than they are now, but have them become more and more common as the game continues, as later in the game the player has more options to counter them.

It wouldn't hurt to give heavy beams a checkbox on the ships tab(like tractors, astrotrains, etc), so those that don't enjoy them can turn them off?

Edit: Ok looking at the tooltips again, I could have sworn at one point they listed how many shots they got?  If you just go by the tooltips now, the mkIII does more damage than the mkIV(and the MkI and the MkIV do the same damage)?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 10:14:09 pm by kjara »

Offline vonduus

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I'd much rather see them start out much rarer than they are now, but have them become more and more common as the game continues, as later in the game the player has more options to counter them.

If this can be done, this is what I want. If it cannot, then I suggest distributing them in the same way as Ion Cannons are distributed; some planets have them, some planets don't.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Vonduus,

Sorry, I wasn't explaining myself well.  It isn't so much the number of words or your level of frustration, it's just when I see semi-melodramatic "I don't want to play the game anymore" type posts I just think we're operating with very different understandings of the situation.  In five minutes I can make heavy beam cannons will no longer be present in the game for future releases (most of that retrofiting the save-loading code), and if that's the consensus we reach here, that's what will happen.  Of course, no one wants them to go away completely (that I'm aware of), so it's more a matter of how to make them less frustrating.  But to just opt out of the prerelease process altogether because of a set of numbers that could very easily change next patch (often in direct response to complaints/suggestions)... I just don't get it.  But I guess I understand from the perspective of "if we don't make a fuss it will stay this way".  Anyway, the point is that you don't have to jump off the ledge to get my attention ;)

And perhaps there's some misunderstanding on one point; I've already added a rule (in 3.088) that restricts the number of beam cannons placed on an AI planet, either through initial placement or reinforcements.  I did so in direct response to one of your past complaints.  If that hasn't addressed the problem (and it does not seem to have done so), I'm happy to continue to crank down on the numbers.

(a while later)

Ok, I went back a set it so that III and IV planets can have at most 1 MkI cannon, and Core/Home planets can have at most 1 MkII cannon.  I also saw that there were some oddities in the code for enforcing the per-planet cap... though they were the sort of oddities that for all right should have made mapgen an infinite loop, so not real sure what was actually going on.  Anyway, that's fixed up and I've tested map gen to make sure it doesn't plop more than 1 of these beasties on any AI planet.  This game adds AI units in a surprising number of places...

Anyway, I think this should reduce it to a level of just adding color to a specific command post on some AI worlds, and perhaps being a significant problem on core/home planets.  Honestly I'd rather there be more of them, but on the other hand the game is sufficiently difficult in 3.060, it doesn't need to get notably harder with this one unit line addition.

Thanks for your feedback (and that of others); please be patient as we figure this out :)
Keith
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Offline Kalzarius

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Ok, I went back a set it so that III and IV planets can have at most 1 MkI cannon, and Core/Home planets can have at most 1 MkII cannon.  I also saw that there were some oddities in the code for enforcing the per-planet cap... though they were the sort of oddities that for all right should have made mapgen an infinite loop, so not real sure what was actually going on.  Anyway, that's fixed up and I've tested map gen to make sure it doesn't plop more than 1 of these beasties on any AI planet.  This game adds AI units in a surprising number of places...

This seems rather extreme to me.  I've gone up against 2 or 3 mark I beam cannons without any severe casualties. Of course, I tend to chew through 20-30k ships each game, often losing whole batches of 2800 ships to the 47 some-odd mark III lightning turrets defending one wormhole, so maybe I'm a little desensitized.  ;D