Author Topic: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)  (Read 10877 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2010, 11:51:28 pm »
Oh, that just means it doesn't have the strong/weak percents because it's a ship that didn't even exist the last time the simulation was run to compute those numbers.  Aside from not showing those percents there is no impact.  "Prerelease" there doesn't mean "trial", it just means that it's due to it being one of these betas.  It's kinda funny that that is causing confusion, because it was changed to that text from a far less explanatory error message that was confusing people to think something else entirely ;)

You should still be able to use the ship just fine (though you will need to unlock the tech at the science lab).
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2010, 11:54:04 pm »
Somehow, I'm intrigued to see such little was required code-wise to create a modular starship.

Naturally, of course, I am of the opinion that that is how starships themselves should be. a hull, where all modules are addons to the base hull.

Each mk level means more hardpoints, with mk2 guns even?
Add in unlockable starship modules (bomber-type weapons, for instance.. beams? muhaha)

i note however in my test run (heh just took all 8 planets on a snake map and massed engineers :p ) that as noted, they are completely useless vs turrets (good), didn't come up against melee units yet. I can imagine shredders having one hell of a feast..

The turrets dont inherit the commands of their ship - Ordering the ship to fire on a train station, for example, leaves only the base hulls shooting, the turrets largely ignore the order. Selecting all the units and telling them to attack works.. but not exactly what I was expecting.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2010, 12:04:05 am »
Well, we appreciate the sale, but the Riot Starship is available with just the base game :)

Are you sure? It said 'no information available in the prerelease version' or something in the pop-up. Hang on, I go check.

That's just the strong/weak data not having been calculated yet. Nothing we are adding these days is part of the expansion, it is all for everyone as free dlc now. Of course, some of the expansion content -- and there is a ton -- is still getting some balance tweaks and minor updates like anything else, but we're not adding new features to the prior paid expansion; that is complete as of it's past release. Of course, we'll do another paid expansion later in the year, with another huge batch of content. But the free dlc continues on unrelated to that for anyone with the base game.

At any rate, we do really appreciate the support either way, and there's a ton to enjoy in the expansion that isn't in the base game. The riot starship just happens to be for everyone!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2010, 12:07:35 am »
Somehow, I'm intrigued to see such little was required code-wise to create a modular starship.
Well, it was a fair bit, but not major surgery.  However, as you will find (and have already found) there are several other sections of code that will need to become "module-informed" to get the behavior people are really expecting.  But I wanted to get the current version to you with the base functionality to make sure it doesn't totally go bork-bork-bork (swedish chef) with the game's innards.

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i note however in my test run (heh just took all 8 planets on a snake map and massed engineers :p ) that as noted, they are completely useless vs turrets (good), didn't come up against melee units yet. I can imagine shredders having one hell of a feast..
They aren't too good against turrets, yea ;)  But if the numbers I put in mean what I think they mean, a 4M-2S Riot MkI should disable HUNDREDS of viral shredders before lunch time begins.  But I may have made a mistake with the numbers (not that it should shut down hundreds of other units, that's a balance question).

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The turrets dont inherit the commands of their ship - Ordering the ship to fire on a train station, for example, leaves only the base hulls shooting, the turrets largely ignore the order. Selecting all the units and telling them to attack works.. but not exactly what I was expecting.
Yes, I knew that was the case, and there was a bug report on that just a moment ago so I went ahead and changed the default behavior to pass on the attack command to the modules.  Perhaps I'll move that logic into the queue processing itself to pass on other orders more efficiently... but right now I can't think of any order but Attack that even applies, as the things aren't exactly moving (though I wanted to have the shotgun module mounted on a "groove" and slam back against the stop when firing, then move back into position... but can't have everything).
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2010, 12:16:06 am »
My mistake made me pay for the expansion, which I intended to do anyway. So all is good, except that I am going to work now. I really am getting too old to sit up all night and play space games.
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Offline Kjara

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2010, 12:28:28 am »
Just as a comment, how currently are riots + favored enemies + modules being handled(well in the next release since they don't get commands from the base ship yet)?  I could see the argument that you may want the different components to have different favored enemies, but if attacking something with the base unit makes the modules attack something, ideally it won't assign a favored unit to them on that attack command.  If it did, the only way to actually setup ideal favored enemies would be to first attack with the base(to set its favored), then individually tweak each module which could be a huge pain everytime you wanted to change the favored unit of the base without changing the favored of the modules.

Offline quickstix

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2010, 12:32:41 am »
Huh, Things really do change! When i joined, fleets were king, munitions boosting was boring, modular ships were never going to happen, and the expansion was a long way off...

Ah, the good old days. The days of Raid Starships running wild and self sustaining deep raids without the need for supply.  ;D

I really am getting too old to sit up all night and play space games.

I hear that.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2010, 12:59:21 am »
I forget - arent viral shredders melee and inf engine?
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Offline Thasero

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2010, 02:09:18 am »
Played around with the Riot Starships a bit and noticed:

1.  When a module builds, it tries to add itself to the control group of the parent starship, like any other builder, but the mod isn't actually selected when you take the control group - although it appears in the sidebar summary
2.  If you select a module and then zoom in or out, the module deselects
3.  If you select multiple Riot Starships, only the lowest number of hardpoints of any of them available is displayed in the build options
4.  EXPLOIT - put a Cloaker Starship next to a Riot Starship.  Put the Riot Starship in low-power mode, or move it far enough away that it doesn't have any targets in range.  The main starship unit remains cloaked, so the AI only targets the modules, which you can rebuild as much as you want.
5.  Semi-exploit - Put 2 Forcefield modules on a Riot Starship.  When either one of them starts to get damaged to red, scrap it and order the Riot Starship to build a new one - it's like a self-repair feature.
6.  Balance issue - the Forcefield Module takes damage like a forcefield, meaning that it protects the Riot Starship from what would normally be its natural enemies.  e.g. Dreadnoughts normally chew up other starships, but they hit the forcefield instead, doing minimal damage.
7.  Modules probably should be immune to attack boosts

The modularity is fun  :), but I actually don't think it's a natural fit for just the Riot Starship - you're basically choosing between slightly different flavors of Riot Starship.  There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm betting most people will get a favorite load-out and just always use that rather than really having a tactical choice.  It would be cool if modules were something you researched separately, and then starships in general had slots for putting them in - so you could use any starship as a platform for slight tweaking.  But that's more the kind of big feature that goes in an expansion.  Hint hint  ;)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2010, 02:39:08 am »
regarding self repair - I dont suppose it would be possible to give the modules a passive repair rate? Most notably the forcefields - On long term raids it might get annoying micro-managing the repair of modules without engineers.
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Offline I-KP

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2010, 05:10:00 am »
I agree it might be a bit too effective for its cost, though. I didn't meet any Vampire Claws, it gave it just a short try, so thanks for the warning.
The Riot line seems to be vulnerable to the Claws with regard to their ability to heal with every attack and as the Riots only really affect engines (or seem to) the Claw just keep on coming and can't be shot down.  It would take a modest sized swarm to put the star ship in any mortal peril though, but smaller numbers did appear to strip off bolt-ons quite effectively.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2010, 09:44:27 am »
1.  When a module builds, it tries to add itself to the control group of the parent starship, like any other builder, but the mod isn't actually selected when you take the control group - although it appears in the sidebar summary
Ah, thanks hadn't thought of that case, I'll just put in so that constructor-passes-on-control-group (and movement, etc) only fires on non-modules.

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2.  If you select a module and then zoom in or out, the module deselects
It's set up to not render or allow selection of modules from far zoom since the icons would get pretty crowded and you really should be able to do what you want on a large scale without caring that some ships have modules.  Still, if you select a module, zoom out, right click a target it should wind up issuing the attack order to that specific module (it may not look selected, but it is, or at least was when I tested it).

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3.  If you select multiple Riot Starships, only the lowest number of hardpoints of any of them available is displayed in the build options
That was very deliberate on my part, though clicking on, say, the RFG build item will queue an RFG for all ships capable of building them.  If y'all want it to display the highest number of possible construction instead I can do that.

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4.  EXPLOIT - put a Cloaker Starship next to a Riot Starship.  Put the Riot Starship in low-power mode, or move it far enough away that it doesn't have any targets in range.  The main starship unit remains cloaked, so the AI only targets the modules, which you can rebuild as much as you want.
Ah, yes, will need to have module doing something non-cloakable apply that to the parent ship (and vice versa), thanks for catching that.

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5.  Semi-exploit - Put 2 Forcefield modules on a Riot Starship.  When either one of them starts to get damaged to red, scrap it and order the Riot Starship to build a new one - it's like a self-repair feature.
Yea, I'm not sure I see that as a problem, as rebuilding-in-combat is part of the idea (thinking of making it automatically rebuild a module on its destruction), but it should be a slow enough rebuilding that it shouldn't provide an excessive advantage.

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6.  Balance issue - the Forcefield Module takes damage like a forcefield, meaning that it protects the Riot Starship from what would normally be its natural enemies.  e.g. Dreadnoughts normally chew up other starships, but they hit the forcefield instead, doing minimal damage.
Yes, and on the other hand the ff dies REALLY fast to anti-ff stuff since it has less than half a million hp compared to 9 million for a normal ff 1.  I'm thinking I may need to split out the ship-mounted forcefields into a separate type with different rules and damage modifiers, because I don't want to give it ridiculous hp but I don't want bombers to render them useless.  Lots of balancing to do there.

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7.  Modules probably should be immune to attack boosts
Maybe, but I don't think that's necessary with the reduction in the intensity of attack boosting.  400% boost would be too much, but 40% or 70% (early in the game, at least) isn't that big a deal.  Certain modules will probably have to be made non-boostable, or have a low boost-percent cap.

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The modularity is fun  :), but I actually don't think it's a natural fit for just the Riot Starship
Yea, I just had the module idea bouncing around and the Riot was the next ship in the queue thanks to the DLC poll, and people's ideas for the ship weapon were different, so it was a target of opportunity.  Still, I think it fits ok because the Riot is intended to deal with fairly large numbers of small troublemakers so it makes sense to have a number of smaller guns.

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- you're basically choosing between slightly different flavors of Riot Starship.  There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm betting most people will get a favorite load-out and just always use that rather than really having a tactical choice.
That all depends on the balance of the modules, I think there is certainly the possibility that you will want different loadouts for different situations (system patrol vs. attack support, etc).  As it is the laser and the machine gun are very different in which ships they are most effective against, though it may be that the laser is just better due to shield penetration (though it costs more, but probably not enough more).

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It would be cool if modules were something you researched separately,
Yes, I'm planning on researchable modules; maybe the forcefield generator and/or tazer would cost 50-100 knowledge or something, and/or have higher mark versions of each module that would be available even for the mkI riot.  Want to avoid the "it costs knowledge so I'll never ever buy/use it" syndrome though.  There are a lot of possibilities :)

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and then starships in general had slots for putting them in
The idea of modularizing the other starships certainly comes to mind, but it would need to be done with care to avoid recklessly changing a pretty large part of the game that's been around since forever.  But I think each line of starships having a certain set of available add-ons to specialize them (so Leech Starships don't get the same available modules as Fleet Starships) could be interesting, and for one thing might help with the munitions/support boosting of fleet starships: allow them to mount a munitions boosting module, or an extra big gun, or whatever to make it a tradeoff and also make the munitions booster easier to target and blow up (unless you covered it with a forcefield module, etc, etc)... but one day at a time.

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But that's more the kind of big feature that goes in an expansion.  Hint hint  ;)
Yea, I had thought to hang on to the modular ship idea for the expansion but Chris said "well, if it is done we may as well release it" and "but, we can do more of that sort of thing with the expansion".  So we'll see; I imagine that if people ask for more of this stuff in the DLC poll that they'll get more of it, but we may make more of a serious effort in the expansion.  But first we need to sort out bugs, how to make the interface for it decent, get the behaviors polished, etc.

Thanks for the feedback :)
Keith
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2010, 10:02:28 am »
Hey, I have been away for more than eight hours now, and we are still on 3.030? ;)
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Offline Goekhan

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2010, 11:02:51 am »
Hey, I have been away for more than eight hours now, and we are still on 3.030? ;)

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Offline I-KP

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Re: Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2010, 01:14:55 pm »
Fleet Starships & Attack Boosting

Looks good.  Feels good.  The MB frontages are clear and intuitive (and also look quite cool in a kind of ‘crushed bubbles’ sort of way).  Boost values look sane as well; should be not too much to make boosting the beginning and end of every strategy yet also not too little so as to not notice it if it’s missing.

Modular Schemes Design Ethic

Top stuff, frankly.  If it works out (no reason why it shouldn’t based on the Riot demo ship) the number of options for future star ship re/designs looks rosy.  The only important consideration, as has been alluded to already, is to be consciously aware of avoiding the slide toward homogeneity; every star ship line needs to jealously guard its shtick, IMHO, and any areas of cross-over functionality should probably remain very minor indeed.  (For example: only the Leech line will ever possess reclamation, only the Fleet line will ever posses boosting and general purpose heavy firepower, only the Raid line will be super-quick and Forcefield-defeating, only the Dread line will be stand-off anti-star ship, only the Riot line will be the non-lethal rush-breaker, ad nauseum.)  It would be oh-so-easy to slip into a position where every star ship could be loaded up with so much guff that the delineation between them, and even between Marks of the same archetype, could become nought but a blur. 

Other Stuff

MMB scrolling is nice and smooth, and very useful.  Could perhaps do with a scroll speed slider (or base it off the existing screen edge scroll speed slider), maybe.

Bulletproofs are not longer a waste of materiale.  Huzzah!

My beloved pet Munitions Boosters are now once again worth having.  Marvellous.  (Although they do perhaps belt along a little on the quick side.  If you want the attack boost then a speed hit for the faster Fleet ships seems like a fair trade-off.)
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