Prerelease 3.030 (Riot Starship, Munitions Boosting Updates)

[vonduus]

the original idea of the riot line was basically to revive one of the roles that Dreads used to play: long range engine damage.  ...  So if y'all think a range reduction is best that's fine with me, it's just something of a reformulation of the idea.

An alternative could be to keep the range and do a drastic lowering of the rate of fire.

[keith.lamothe]

the original idea of the riot line was basically to revive one of the roles that Dreads used to play: long range engine damage.  ...  So if y'all think a range reduction is best that's fine with me, it's just something of a reformulation of the idea.

An alternative could be to keep the range and do a drastic lowering of the rate of fire.

But rapid fire is fun!

[Mylon]

My feedback on the latest patch:

The Riot control ship seems pretty cool.  I think it may be a tad overpowered, but only in it's engine damage.  It doesn't seem to do a whole lot of regular damage, but being able to, with one shot, stop 50 ships cold and from then on snipe them seems pretty powerful.  I've stopped a number of charges where the AI tries to fly past my fleet to get to the crunchy bits of my empire.  I have noticed that the ship in FRD has this bad habit of creating a line of engine-killed ships and then flying right into range to get one end of that line, only to be shot up by the middle of the line.

The force field module is very fragile and doesn't regenerate.  A small group of bombers look at it funny and it disappears.  Perhaps I'm merely jaded, but I haven't even bothered with the tazer module.  Being centered on the ship and such short range it doesn't seem worth the bother.  The laser module seems superior to the rapid fire module in every way except a small amount of range.  It has superior damage per second and more punch per shot to get through shields.  The only thing that seems to really define the ship, however, is the riot module.  Some new modules to give it more utility would be cool.

Bulletproof fighters seem to be a bit powerful now.  They can laugh at fighters and basic turrets and they do lots of damage to fortresses.  Immune to bullets, immune to being instakilled, they have more health than fighters of similar mark, and they're starship killers?  I recommend toning their health down a tad.

The riot starship's modules seem to have this strange effect on starship contructors.  One has to click the mod button to view buildable modules, but once that has been done, starship constructors no longer display the build buttons.  One must first click the "Star" button in the lower left to re-show them, and this similarly hides the riot ship's menu.

[vonduus]

But rapid fire is fun!

I agree, I have great fun with this ship as it is right now. Always nice to be a winnner !

A third alternative would be to give the ship more natural enemies. I haven't yet met ships of the shredder-type, to me the riot ship has been virtually unvulnerable so far. Noone ever gets close enough to harm them (so why bother buying force fields?)

Or perhaps a combination of a slightly lower hit chance, a slightly lower range and a slightly lower rof could do it? Who got the idea to this ship, was it I-KP, what has he to say?

[vince0018]

The riot starship's modules seem to have this strange effect on starship contructors.  One has to click the mod button to view buildable modules, but once that has been done, starship constructors no longer display the build buttons.  One must first click the "Star" button in the lower left to re-show them, and this similarly hides the riot ship's menu.

 I had this happen on my game also so I just wanted to confirm it's not just him. Also I don't know exactly how to quote and I apologize.

Another thing you could do to fit the riot ship in is lower the cost somewhat, say 12,000M 26,000C and maybe make it more like an advanced Light Starship so it may still fit in as a more powerful support. Of course I still agree the range should be nerfed. But then if the riot were to become more of a basic starship then the modular system will be a little off unless it is implemented a little into the other star ships but I think that's being considered already if I'm not mistaken.

 EDIT: Oh I see the quote button now *slaps self in head*
 Another thing I see is a problem is when you look at the riot ship by name 'Riot' it seems like more of a Military Police/SWAT type of thing and for it to have as much power as a full military Flagship seems a little out of place to me.
 
(FIXED QUOTE)

[I-KP]

Who got the idea to this ship, was it I-KP, what has he to say?

Don't look at me, I mostly just push pixels around and thought it would be nice to get back what the Dread used to do: crowd control.  KL is on the case.  Sit tight and I'm sure it'll all even out within a few beta updates.  Give it time to simmer. 

-Added ship-based forcefield graphic from I-KP, and it is used for the forcefield generator module that can be mounted on the Riot Control Starship.

It shows up much more faintly in-game than in an image viewer (where it looks incredible), so hopefully we can figure out how to tweak the image and/or the rendering code to better achieve the effect.  I tried tweaking up the base alpha value (120, to which is added an oscillating value) and it brought out more of the original image but also created a bit of an unpleasant bleed effect so it's back at 120.

It looks something like this in-game, I presume...



That was intentional so that it wasn't overpowering and had a kind of wispy, quasi-physical appearance to it.  If it needs to be brighter I can make it so.  Let me know.

[vonduus]

Okay, I will put the pressure on keith, then

But now you are here, I-KP: I really like the graphics of this ship, and the new forcefield is beautiful. What I am trying here is to somehow make it worthwhile also to buy and use a force field, for more than aesthetic reasons.

@ keith: If I was in command I would make the riot ship mk. I very weak on long range, far stronger on medium range and almost invincible on short range. Using any of the methods i mentioned: Hit chance, rof, whatever.

The ship we have now is in the mark III class, and probably even too strong for that. Imo it is a wunderwaffe.

[keith.lamothe]

Kinda busy to reply to everything, but on the force fields I agree that it's not really useful right now.  The problem is that with normal forcefield properties if I make it strong enough to stand, say, 10 seconds of 50-mkI-bombers-fire the ship would be able to survive the assault of an *insane* number of fighters and such.

So I have to split out the ship-based forcefield into a separate classification with similar behavior but different attack modifiers (bombers get *4 instead of *40 or something like that).  That will take a little time since the current forcefield classification gets a fair bit of custom logic (at least iirc).

[vince0018]

 If people want forcefields more for aesthetic reasons maybe their defense/hp could be lowered, the logic being a portable shield generator probably wouldn't produce as much juice as a full generator. However if there were another option such as an alternative to a forcefield that would probably be cool. Maybe if I were to simplify it a lot you could say if the ship had two slots you could firstly choose which of several types of weapons for the first slot, then whether you want a secondary weapon in the second slot for more offense or a shield generator for more defense.

  Slot 1: Riot Main Gun-Permanent

                          |-------Riot Machine Gun
  Slot 2: ----------|-------Riot Laser
                          |-------Riot Shotgun

  Slot 3:-----------|------Riot Tazer
                          |------Shield Generator

[I-KP]

Do you think anyone would bother with the MG or the Laser instead of the Shotgun (i.e., with the shotgun being the optimum choice for what makes the Riot star ships do what they do)?  If you're building Riots you want them to be deployed in a crowd control capacity so you'll be wanting the most effective choice for that role welded in place, not far weaker bolt-ons that are probably only meant as secondary versatility.

The choice between the Battle Shields and the Tazer is a good one.  I can see uses for each option (assuming that the Battle Shields stay fairly fragile, i.e., only buys the Riot star ship a bit of extra time if it gets mobbed and not some mad-crazy super-bubble).

Let’s face it, if you’ve built a Riot you’re going to load it up with the best anti-engine option is has: the ‘‘Ave It!’ gun.  (Even after the nerf it will likely remain as the primary weapon.  Arguably something that shouldn’t be available for the MkI or perhaps even the MkII models.)  The choice comes in what kind of supplementary configuration you want to come with the Big Gun™: [All MGs|Half-and-half|All Lasers]

Riot MkI:-
Chassis: Lightly armoured but swift
Base: Main Gun
Slot1: [2MGs|1MG & 1Las|2Las]

Riot MkII:-
Chassis: Sacrifice some speed for more armour
Base: Main Guns (x2)
Slot1: [2MGs|1MG & 1Las|2Las]
Slot2: [‘‘Ave It!’ Gun]

Riot MkIII:-
Chassis: Tough but comparatively slower
Base: Main Guns (x2)
Slot1: [4MGs|2MG & 2Las|4Las]
Slot2: [‘‘Ave It!’ Gun]
Slot3: [Tazer*|Battle Shields]

* Very slow recharge (something in the order of 100 seconds) but able to reduce all Fleet ships’ engines caught in its burst by 40%.  Note: this weapons would have to wait at least 10 seconds before it actually fires to ensure that the Riot ship can be moved right into the heart of the mob it’s trying to slow down.

EDIT:-
PS.  If Bombers crack the Battle Shields in pretty short order then so be it, that is pretty much their shtick after all.  The player will just have to screen their Riots with Fighters to mitigate that serious threat.

[RCIX]

Kinda busy to reply to everything, but on the force fields I agree that it's not really useful right now.  The problem is that with normal forcefield properties if I make it strong enough to stand, say, 10 seconds of 50-mkI-bombers-fire the ship would be able to survive the assault of an *insane* number of fighters and such.

So I have to split out the ship-based forcefield into a separate classification with similar behavior but different attack modifiers (bombers get *4 instead of *40 or something like that).  That will take a little time since the current forcefield classification gets a fair bit of custom logic (at least iirc).

Well, ideally if it's not already done, you should be able to go something like:

class RiotForcefield : PlayerForcefield
{
    //whatever method handles damage multipliers
        //insert multiplier code here
    // /whatever method handles damage multipliers
}

[vonduus]

Do you think anyone would bother with the MG or the Laser instead of the Shotgun (i.e., with the shotgun being the optimum choice for what makes the Riot star ships do what they do)? 
Let’s face it, if you’ve built a Riot you’re going to load it up with the best anti-engine option is has: the ‘‘Ave It!’ gun.

My now-standard setup is 2 lasers for big ships and 2 MGs for small ships, 1 shotgun for if anyone gets through to medium range (haven't seen very many go that far) and 1 force field for, well, aesthetic reasons. I am sure I could do without both the shotgun and the force field, the mg/laser-combo alone makes this ship a wunderwaffe. 

I am 7 hours into a new game (ZR, ai level 7), all 5 riot ships are in the main fleet, and the AI has no chance of winning, if only I can manage to ward off his insane CPAs. So I don't really see why anyone would bother with the shotgun and the tazer, or the force field for that matter, when you can keep all danger at bay with machineguns and lasers.

The key to using riot ships as an exploit is to always keep them with the main fleet. In this way they ensure that nothing comes close that you don't want to, except starships, and perhaps shredder-type units. But there normally are so few enemy starships around at any one time, that you have no problem killing them with the main fleet. Same is true for the shredder-type ships I guess (haven't met them in battle yet). And I wasn't even aware that riot ships are vulnerable to bombers, because no bomber ever came near enough to drop their bombs on one of my riot ships.

Of course, if you do solo raids with single riot ships you might get into trouble, but who in his right mind would ever attack with just one or two riot ship and risk to get them killed if he has experienced how five riot ships supported by the main fleet are invincible?

I think the proper wording should be 'riot ships in support of the main fleet', not 'main fleet in support of the riot ships'.

I-KP, if you are referring to how you would like the end product = the properly balanced riot ship to behave, then your words makes sense.

edit:

PS just to make sure I am not misinterpreted: I do not want force fields for aesthetic reasons, I want them for military reasons. The only military reason I can think of involves the enemy being capable of getting himself into shooting range.

[x4000]

And the new version now arrives:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,3857.0.html

[keith.lamothe]

Well, ideally if it's not already done, you should be able to go something like:

class RiotForcefield : PlayerForcefield
{
    //whatever method handles damage multipliers
        //insert multiplier code here
    // /whatever method handles damage multipliers
}

Yea, it'd be nice if we were able to go full-out OOP but there's no way we can get the same kind of performance, so there's very little inheritance or anything like that.  I was intentionally using the term "Classification" (corresponds to an enum value), not "Class"

[I-KP]

I-KP, if you are referring to how you would like the end product = the properly balanced riot ship to behave, then your words makes sense.

Of course I'm talking about the use of the balanced version.  What would be the point of discussing uses of v1 knowing that it already doesn't exist..?