Author Topic: Prerelease 3.024 (Basic Keep-Formation Movement, Scouts vs AOE buff, bugfixes)  (Read 7384 times)

Offline I-KP

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It's no big deal, deM, privacy is an illusion as well but most of us are blissful in our ignorance.  ;)

...and I was at work today and found myself at a lose end.

Oh, and I'm right.   :P
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:45:51 pm by I-KP »
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Offline x4000

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I-KP, thanks very much for the excellent reply.  I'm not offended in the slightest, no worries there.  And, I think that you did make your point much clearer to me; I confess I had missed the points about being sometimes-on, etc, in your other notes.  I am quite verbose, but I will try to keep this post brief; it's out of time consideration, not out of any sort of sense or irritation or whatever.

You are also spot on in the fact that this is not a learning AI in any fashion, and that high-order tactics are essentially random occurrences.  Hence the nature of many first-and-second-order emergent systems, but it will never evolve beyond that. Learning AIs are a whole other school of thought which is beyond my threshold of interest at the moment.

I do take issue with the assertion that ships always act purely selfishly in AI War, though, as they do give some weight to what other ships are doing.  That leads to groups spontaneously forming or dissolving, rather than just ships purely winding up together by chance.

The other founding tenet of the AI in AI War is that it really doesn't matter what the AI is doing, it just matters what it makes the human players do.  From that angle, I am wholly disinterested in improving the AI for the sake of improving the AI, but only in terms of making new and interesting decisions and challenges for the human players.  Having the AI appear more human-like by using combined arms is not too much of a goal.  Having challenging, varied new formations by having it use combined arms is a worthy goal.

Part of this, then, comes back to what is computationally possible in a game of sufficient complexity.  Or, rather, what can be algorithmically designed in a linear fashion by programmers, without introducing other seemingly-unrelated problems.  Discussion of combined arms is all well in good, but at some point that has to actually be modeled in a mathematical sense, which is far easier said than done.  In having thought about this issue in more depth over the last couple of days, I think that I am coming closer to a model for making this work.

The problem is, when designing an emergent AI it really can't be based at all on what we as meat-sacks would do.  The more we try to emphasize meat-sack-style rules, the more the effectiveness of the underlying AI crumbles in general.  Just now, I have been struck by the thought that it might be good to try enhancing the flockability of the AI in general, which would lead to more self-organizing combined arms of all sorts.  Forget starships, it could work on an interesting level with many ships; though anything with munitions or similar boosters could certainly be a higher priority for this sort of thing.  The common way that RTS AI tends to solve this is via an "anchor unit," but there are a ton of pitfalls with that on anything smaller and less sturdy than a starship.  Better, potentially, to organize around mutually-selected targets, with starships and other boosters then perhaps acting as tag-alongs to targets with a lot of other ships assigned to them.  I will have to play with that some, and see what I can come up with.

P.S. -- As to why an AI starship is ever best alone, the reason is simple: distraction.  A starship alone is able to take out a lot of defenses and things players want to protect while on its own, and so the tendency is for players to then run after that.  On the flip side, they take a long time to kill, so that can then let all the other ships slip past and do a bunch of damage elsewhere in the meantime.  In the end, that can lead to greater losses for the players in the end.  Not a good tactic to use if you are worried about losses you take, but in terms of creating interesting and challenging situations for the human players, I think it succeeds pretty well.
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Offline x4000

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...Your final thoughts seem to be roughly in line with what I proposed in that regard so perhaps we’re actually, broadly speaking, firing out of the same side of the trench after all....
While it sort of feels as if I am butting in to a private argument here, it is on a public thread and I really can't resist so here goes.

As someone who does have some understanding of strong and weak emergence, computer programming, and war games, it seems to me upon having read both I-KP's and X4000' posts in lots of threads on this forum that in many ways you understand the issues and are indeed firing from the same trench, but also in may ways you fundamentally disagree.
You also understand each others disagreements - this is clear from the way in which you respond to each others points so concisely. Yet you keep having the same disagreement. The same one.
I must admit that I do enjoy listening to a good old debate, especially one that is in a theme I feel I have some knowledge of, but guys.....
Oh heck, I was just about to go into a big rant about the pro's and con's of weak and strong emergence....
Seee? You nearly had me getting sucked in there.... that was close...
I know how you feel, I have difficulty leaving it alone myself.
Who am I to talk.....
<wanders off muttering>

I think that the fundamental difference is that I don't actually care about the AI for its own sake, I'm not interested in seeing it grow for its own purposes and never have been.  My goals are all centered around what makes for the most possible different scenarios for the human players, whether those are accidentally occurring or intentionally driven.

<edit>How about a thread for dangerous topics like philosophy, programming, politics and so forth. It can have a warning for people 'beware ye who venture within' I can post all about why QBasic is superior to VB (which is actually evil, and so is access), and Python is the king of languages. Also, I can finally let loose on the illusory nature of everything especially the differences between strong and weak emergence and why division by zero is actually a very useful mathematical tool if used appropriately...oh and another thing.... <edit>

Perhaps at some point, such a forum would be a good idea -- or thread, whatever.  In general I am not here to get myself involved in a lot of lengthy debates, though. ;)
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Offline HitmanN

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I tried to read the long posts, but I think I skipped a few paragraphs in there somewhere.  :o Just too tired at the moment, but I'll read 'em in detail later. Interesting stuff.

Anyways, I'll be (somewhat) brief. This is just regarding starships on AI planets.

Trigger:
Planet on alert
Result:
Reinforce important targets (like normal), including (considerably effective) starships.

Reinforcements for starships could appear from Guard Posts, or Special Forces Guard Posts could fill this role for a planet, giving an additional benefit for destroying them quick, as they might make local starships more dangerous by providing them cover.

The 'guards' accompanying starships could leave and attack nearby enemies just like they were guarding a Guard Post, maybe at a slightly shorter distance. In short, starships are basically considered mobile guard posts by the AI on its planets.

The main point being, aren't starships just as important targets to protect as a guard post? Sure guard posts spawn additional ships and are thus important, but what about the big starships that already have the HP and firepower of a hundred ships at times? Isn't it equally important to try and keep them intact and providing defensive firepower and supporting smaller ships, as a structure that occasionally spawns a bunch of ships worth a fraction of the starship's stats?

If this scenario was already covered in there somewhere, or if I'm not even directly on topic (wouldn't be the first time), then just consider this a +1 for the idea in general and leave it at that. :P

Offline I-KP

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Having the AI appear more human-like by using combined arms is not too much of a goal.  Having challenging, varied new formations by having it use combined arms is a worthy goal.
I think I posted somewhere in here that AI should very rarely be designed to mimic meatsack behaviour, and someone slapped me down for daring to suggest it!  I forget who.  I’ll find out later and prepare the mailbomb after supper.  ;)

I too have no interest in watching an AI do funky things – such activities are best left to broad-bellied, beardy men sat in sheds as far as I’m concerned.  As a player I’d like to see the AI do less-linear actions when it does what it ultimately does, attack.  (Oh, and to not treat all of its Starships as mere distractions.  Imagine how effective they’d be if some of them were employed to their strengths.  Terrifying, no?  *wink*)  Co-operative forms of attack do present new situations and challenges for the players to overcome (particularly in AI War) because the hard counter delineation suddenly becomes rather blurred, and that lack of clear response resolution often makes players panic which in turn leads to a huge swell of satisfaction when/if that player prevails.  Blurred = Fuzziness.  And we can all agree that Fuzziness = Loveliness.  Predictability is the (agile) mindkiller.  Knowing that the AI will always leave its most valuable assets behind in every single attack is-

You know what, time to stop.  Enough.  :-\

Better, potentially, to organize around mutually-selected targets, with starships and other boosters then perhaps acting as tag-alongs to targets with a lot of other ships assigned to them.  I will have to play with that some, and see what I can come up with.
If you’re going to put thought into it then that’s all I could reasonably expect.   8)
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Offline Excession

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I think some flocking behaviour would be nice and all, but would be bit worried if AI's started building a fleet of Raid Starships, pointed them at my homeworld command station and pressed 'go'!

I agree that a learning or stronger AI per se is just a red herring - what matters is fun, diverse and challenging (not  necessarily 'realistic') gameplay.

Offline keith.lamothe

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I think some flocking behaviour would be nice and all, but would be bit worried if AI's started building a fleet of Raid Starships, pointed them at my homeworld command station and pressed 'go'!

I agree that a learning or stronger AI per se is just a red herring - what matters is fun, diverse and challenging (not  necessarily 'realistic') gameplay.
Or we could add an AI type that just frees all of its ships for attack duty as soon as the game starts :)
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Offline HellishFiend

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Or we could add an AI type that just frees all of its ships for attack duty as soon as the game starts :)

*fires up a nice sandbox difficulty game with +200% handicap and random AI types*

"Aah, this should be a nice, relaxing, cakewaOH MY GOD!!"
Time to roll out another ball of death.