Author Topic: Prerelease 3.024 (Basic Keep-Formation Movement, Scouts vs AOE buff, bugfixes)  (Read 7397 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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-Added J+right-click combination for new "formation-move" order that maintains each ship in the selection's relative offset from their weighted center.

Perhaps this could be made another movement mode like Lone and Group move mode.  I know I certainly don't want to be holding down J for 99.9% of my movement orders.
That *exact* idea came to us earlier today, and it's one of my goals for tomorrow.  But thanks for making sure we thought of it :)
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Offline Kalzarius

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That *exact* idea came to us earlier today, and it's one of my goals for tomorrow.  But thanks for making sure we thought of it :)

Awesome!

Offline Lancefighter

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I noticed that the group move doesnt work with less than 7 units.. intentional?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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I noticed that the group move doesnt work with less than 7 units.. intentional?
It shouldn't really care.  Theoretically it should work with 2 (or 1, but with 1 it's by definition the same thing as a normal move).  Will check into it.  Thanks for the note :)
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Offline x4000

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Could it be made so that the map generator places N advanced factories together on the same planet, where N is the number of players, and then the game distributes them automatically on planet capture? It would make it more clear to the players, and I think it's more elegant than spawning them when the planet is taken over.

Problem is, then you are hosed if you add or remove players later. And it will not work with existing saves. In the current model, it will give one per player at the time of capture. If one player later joins, then they lose out on any past captures, but can take advantage of any future ones.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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On the subject of formation-move, for 3.025:

- Changed J+right-click formation move to set new formation offset fields on the ships themselves, and the offsets are applied to all subsequent move orders.

- Added Alt+J which clears formation offsets for all selected ships (note that this is the only way to clear those offsets, so that they are fairly durable).
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Offline deMangler

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On the subject of formation-move, for 3.025:

- Changed J+right-click formation move to set new formation offset fields on the ships themselves, and the offsets are applied to all subsequent move orders.

- Added Alt+J which clears formation offsets for all selected ships (note that this is the only way to clear those offsets, so that they are fairly durable).

At the moment alt -J rightclick, formation moves and puts the ship into the yellow mode when they arrive.
This is kind of handy and intuitive. I am wondering if another combination than alt-J might be better for clearing formation move....

dM

Offline Lancefighter

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i dont think you need to click to remove the offsets - from the sound of it, just pressing alt-j removes them
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Offline I-KP

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Could it be made so that the map generator places N advanced factories together on the same planet, where N is the number of players, and then the game distributes them automatically on planet capture? It would make it more clear to the players, and I think it's more elegant than spawning them when the planet is taken over.

Problem is, then you are hosed if you add or remove players later. And it will not work with existing saves. In the current model, it will give one per player at the time of capture. If one player later joins, then they lose out on any past captures, but can take advantage of any future ones.
I understand concerns about new factories suddenly materialising beside existing ones: it'll just look and feel odd (accepting fully that it is ultimately a helpful multiplayer mechanic to be able to have a factory each).  Notwithstanding that this is the easiest solution there must be a better way... somewhere; even if it's only aesthetic, i.e., stacked on top of each other with some form of clever click algorithm to bring the owners’ factory into focus first.  Between the gifting system, pre-populating the map with factories equal to the number of starting players[1] and this solution, to my mind this solution is the least graceful.  Sorry, but it is.

I know this is largely an aesthetic issue, and perhaps a logical one as well, but how about approaching this from a slightly different appearance perspective:  Keep the central factory as it is but once captured instead of spawning copies of itself it extends a ‘production control module’ beside it for each player.  (These smaller modules could appear to be on the end of a long, gantry-like armature so multiple modules form a radial pattern around the central factory graphic[2].)  Each module then acts as the primary point of interaction for the player and the central advanced factory sprite in effect becomes a hub-like placeholder, i.e., purely for visual effect and has no other mechanical function.  Once captured this gives the impression that the factory is somehow unfurling and making itself ready for multiple concurrent manufacture runs, just as an advanced facility might do. 

Personally, I didn't mind all the gifting that used to happen.  In many ways it encouraged team play (you had to prioritise output) and interaction, and it gave a stronger sense that you're all in this morass together... *shrugs*

[1]  And if the number of players did increase everyone would fall back to the gifting method anyway.
[2]  Gone are the days of doing speculative PNGs for this stuff now.  2D pixel stuff was a doddle to kick out at a frightening rate but 3D stuff takes a while to look white-hot (and why would you not make it look white-hot with no poly count limitations), too long for me these days.  (Even tho a few years ago I spent large chunks of my life inside 3DMAX and Maya for other indie projects.)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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On the subject of formation-move, for 3.025:

- Changed J+right-click formation move to set new formation offset fields on the ships themselves, and the offsets are applied to all subsequent move orders.

- Added Alt+J which clears formation offsets for all selected ships (note that this is the only way to clear those offsets, so that they are fairly durable).

At the moment alt -J rightclick, formation moves and puts the ship into the yellow mode when they arrive.
This is kind of handy and intuitive. I am wondering if another combination than alt-J might be better for clearing formation move....

dM
Ah, very good point.  The keyboard layout is a minefield for an unsuspecting programmer trying to add key combinations.  Suggestions on a better key combination for "clear formation offset"?
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Offline I-KP

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I'd just like to say, I'm loving the Formation Movement.  I'm sure it will refine over the next few patches into something rather indispensable.

Any chance of getting the AI to do the same with the odd battlegroup here and there..?  *cheeky wiggle of the eyebrows*
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Offline keith.lamothe

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I could have it randomly use the isFormationMove flag but could you really tell it was moving that blob of ships in formation move or not? ;)

(the logic for getting it to position its ships a certain ways is a whole different ball of wax than letting you maintain positioning in your own moves, and I'm pretty sure involves the sort of transcending-agent-level AI that Chris wants to avoid for tactical stuff)

But the cool factor is certainly there.

I'm really glad you like the formation move feature, if my code changes are ok for the next prerelease it should be even more useful :)
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Offline I-KP

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I could have it randomly use the isFormationMove flag but could you really tell it was moving that blob of ships in formation move or not? ;)
Yes, probably every single time. 
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Offline keith.lamothe

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I could have it randomly use the isFormationMove flag but could you really tell it was moving that blob of ships in formation move or not? ;)
Yes, probably every single time. 
What I mean is that it would just maintain the relative positioning of its ships that existed when the move order was given, which is no more rational than having them converge on the destination point since their original relative positioning was not planned.  Also, honestly not sure if the AI even gives group move orders in the same way as the player... anyway, I don't think Chris would want me to make it use formation move right now ;)
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Offline x4000

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I could have it randomly use the isFormationMove flag but could you really tell it was moving that blob of ships in formation move or not? ;)
Yes, probably every single time. 
What I mean is that it would just maintain the relative positioning of its ships that existed when the move order was given, which is no more rational than having them converge on the destination point since their original relative positioning was not planned.  Also, honestly not sure if the AI even gives group move orders in the same way as the player... anyway, I don't think Chris would want me to make it use formation move right now ;)

The AI indeed does not give group orders in the style of the player at present.  At this time, I'm not interested in formations for the AI, I feel that in most cases it will lead to suboptimal behavior despite the occasional benefits to ships such as starships.
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