Author Topic: Prerelease 1.201H (Difficulty adjustments for lower/mid diffs, pause all change)  (Read 3521 times)

Offline x4000

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The Latest prerelease is now out: http://www.arcengames.com/share/AIWar1201H.zip

That version is an upgrade from version 1.013, so you have to already have 1.013 (or greater) installed. Just unzip it into your game folder (usually C:\Program Files\Arcen Games\AI War\ unless you specified something else). Please make sure that your unzip process keeps the folder structure from the zip file, rather than just unpacking all of the files into the base target directory.

Why is this now 1.201 instead of 1.014?  Well, this release is just so huge that I felt it needed to be differentiated with a more major version number shift.  People are going to remember this as the release where the economy became flow-based and got more robust, where the AI tactics became way more intelligent in many ways, and where a ton of interface and graphical improvements came into play, amongst other rebalancing and over a dozen new ship types.  It's a whole new game from 1.013 in some respects when it comes to the advanced strategy, so this is something I felt was important to make really clear with the numbering.

What's new since 1.201G:
(Cumulative release notes since 1.013 are attached at the bottom)

-------------------

-Ships that have queues paused by "Pause All" now show the text "Pause All" above them to make it clear why they are not doing anything.

-Cross-planet attacks have been adjusted significantly.  For AI 8 and up, they continue to work as before.  For AI 7 up to but not including 8, the tech level of ships that can be in waves will be 2 at a minimum, or otherwise the current tech level of the AI player controlling the ships included in the attack.  For difficulties under 7, the cross-planet attacks will now never include ships of a tech level higher than 2 -- if there are not enough AI ships to fill out the complete attack, that attack will just have fewer ships.  This should help even out the difficulty on levels below 7.

-The incoming AI Waves on difficulty 8 and up are now 4X larger, which will make them more interesting as well as offsetting some of the increase in the amount of player resources.  The goal here is to continue to make the player feel powerful, but also to make the AI seem a lot more formidable on offense.  Additionally the AI waves on difficulty 7 up to but not including 8 are now 3x larger, and the AI waves on difficulty 6 up to but not including 7 are 2x larger.

-The command stations quick-button at the bottom of the screen now identifies how many hostile enemy ships are on each planet, same as the old flashing command-stations-under-attack quick button used to.


CHANGES FROM PAST PRERELEASES
--------------

-The "Pause All" button no longer affects affects self-building placed ships, it is now back to just affecting queue construction.

-The new incoming wave size multipliers that are by AI difficulty level replace the global modifier that was there in previous prereleases.  This should make for a better difficulty scale, giving expert players what they want without making it so harsh on newer players.

-Bombers now have 4x more attack bonus against fighters.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 11:57:49 pm by x4000 »
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Offline liq3

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I'm loving the current balance atm. Waves aren't too large or small, CPAs are kinda scary.

Playing against 2 Diff 8 Random Harders atm, on a 80 planet Realistic Hubs map. My homeworld has 6 wormholes to, 1 of them I control, another I've nearly taken. Rest are enemies. My homeworld is basically under constant attack. Quite intense. Very fun. :]

Offline darke

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Random AI10/8-start-world/80-planets report (started in 201B I think, ended in 201H):

Eventually gave up on my game two planets from the AI pair of home worlds. Game seems beatable, the only issue is that it looks like I'll need around 10k ships per world assault. Whilst this is do-able (I apparently have 20k ships in total in comparison to the enemy's 45k ships), the game doesn't really like me using more then around 6k ships per world and $(smallnum) FPS is rather tedious to play with, with 10k ships plus enemy ships on a world it would be more then a bit choppy. :)

His X-ness needs to think about how to handle the AI Modifier of "Nuclear Command" and it's interaction with Lightning Missiles. :) It certainly makes the game faster to play, though not particularly easier from experience.

As mentioned in other threads the Turtle AI's are relative pansies in comparison to other AI types due to latest upgrades, the only real challenge is making it through the wormhole.

A mistake I made was relying too much on Mark I ships. It's not worth bothering with any of the I mobile ships as a consequence of the game bogging down so much when you do use hordes of them, much better just using your start (plus 8-homeworld) knowledge on II turrets and II ships, and III turrets if you've got any left and start cranking those out.

I found the I turrets are somewhat useful in heavily enemy-trafficed areas, since it doesn't really matter if they die you just rebuild a few dozen more with ctrl-shift-clicks since they're relatively quick to build. All things considered though it'd probably be worth shaving off 30 seconds from the time to build the short/missile/tachyon I turrets since they die relatively quickly (so you don't get to use the resource-free repairs on them), and it would give them a good niche to use when you're trying to recover after an attack before the next wave hits. Toss some of those rather then the II/III's and you have some defense even if the others don't build in time.

Main constraint in the game seems to be Energy. AI level doesn't really matter since they're throwing so much stuff at you already that you never really notice the difference increasing. The only thing you really notice is the II/III level change, and even then you're getting hit with a lot of III stuff before then (such as bombers) that it's also a relatively small defensive adjustment.

Starships at this level are relatively worthless. Their munitions booster affect is tiny in comparison to the size of the fleet they need to keep them alive. I ended up upgrading all levels of all the starships, but ended up pretty much just building them all and tossing them into my fleets and ignoring them.

One shiptype I did find particularly useful early-ish on was the raid starship, but they really need some cloaking+cloak boosting so you can do the proper hit-and-run guerrilla type thing, and like the scout starships they also really need a bit of auto-repair so you can use them more thematically as starships that survive away from "home space".

As much as I'd hate it from the AI perspective, the Leech Starships would probably benefit from cloaking+cloak boosting+auto repair as well. That way you could use the scout/leech/raid starship trio (plus, say, a force of cloaked ships like the space planes and such) as some form of deep-assault setup to take out particularly annoying ion cannons, or data centers and the like. Would give that upgrade tree a more distinct flavour like the other starship upgrade trees have.

Random other notes:

Tractor Beam Turret III's take the same amount of time to build as the II's, which seems out of pattern compared to the other turrets.

Lightning Turret build-time: O.o

Fortress takes 4 minutes to build, Lightning Turret I takes 10 minutes. Fortress can make 6*900*21 attack shots in the same time the LT I can make one 400 attack shot, so unless there's something like 300 enemies in range, the fortress is way better value per attack.

Yes the fortress costs a lot more initially to build, but even the LT III's the value is only worth it if there's 100 enemies in range (granted probably the case at that point, but LT III's take 21 minutes to build!), but given you're going to be rebuilding these turrets continually at $(mega_slow) speed it really seems to be not worth the effort.

That's all for now, though I will probably think of other things after I hit send. :)

Offline affronter

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Can anyone clarify how the space tugs are supposed to work?
So far I believed they should tug a ship in need of repairs (from here on out "tugee") to the mobile repair station regardless of its commands / state (under attack, damaged engine, etc), and keep it immobile there until fully repaired - but for the life of me I can't seem to get them to do anything but lose contact with the tugee after just a second or so, with it then "sliding" back to its original position. This happens regardless of if the tugee has any commands active (move, attack) or the tug itself is on free roam or not.

So I'm guessing it's bugged, but wanted to double check if I'm missing something before posting that in the bug report forum.

Offline Revenantus

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Hi affronter,

Welcome to the forum.

You're correct that space tugs are bugged in the current prerelease, it's on the critical list so should hopefully be fixed soon - http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1068.0.html

Thanks for taking the time to report this, it's helpful players like yourself that help to keep the game as stable as possible. :)

Offline affronter

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Oh, didn't see that, didn't think a critical bug list would be found on a sub board of the DLC one of all places. Good to know. I think a link to that on a sticky in the bug report forum would be nice, so even people like me find it right away... if you feel bored ;)

Anyway, thanks for the welcome. Carry on being awesomely responsive ;)

Offline AcidWeb

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If somebody in team is bored setup ticket based bug tracking script: bugzilla or something in this type  ;)

EDIT:
Or after SMF 2.0 relase make something like that: http://www.smfarcade.info/forum/index.php?action=projects
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 10:30:12 am by AcidWeb »

Offline Revenantus

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Oh, didn't see that, didn't think a critical bug list would be found on a sub board of the DLC one of all places. Good to know. I think a link to that on a sticky in the bug report forum would be nice, so even people like me find it right away... if you feel bored ;)

Thanks for the suggestion, there's now a redirection topic in the bug reports forum. Given that a large number of players are likely to observe this particular bug I agree it's a good idea.


If somebody in team is bored setup ticket based bug tracking script: bugzilla or something in this type  ;)

We had considered a dedicated bug tracking solution, but were concerned about the lack of integration with the forum so decided against it.

EDIT:
Or after SMF 2.0 relase make something like that: http://www.smfarcade.info/forum/index.php?action=projects

Now that's very interesting, that may well be the solution once SMF 2.0 is released. :)

Offline Fiskbit

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Could you move the energy display to something else, like possibly alt+A, instead? I use A all the time to view ownership during battles and the numbers are a little distracting. Not a big deal, but it'd be nice. :P
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Offline x4000

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Could you move the energy display to something else, like possibly alt+A, instead? I use A all the time to view ownership during battles and the numbers are a little distracting. Not a big deal, but it'd be nice. :P

Okay. :)
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Offline x4000

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Eventually gave up on my game two planets from the AI pair of home worlds. Game seems beatable, the only issue is that it looks like I'll need around 10k ships per world assault. Whilst this is do-able (I apparently have 20k ships in total in comparison to the enemy's 45k ships), the game doesn't really like me using more then around 6k ships per world and $(smallnum) FPS is rather tedious to play with, with 10k ships plus enemy ships on a world it would be more then a bit choppy. :)

Yeah, you're really playing at the extreme end of things with the 8 planet starts there.  8 actual players comes off a bit different because they have 8x the paralellization of commands, which makes it play out pretty differently.  That said, I'm definitely considering some sort of ship-grouping mechanism to try to cut down on the CPU load in situations with extreme numbers of ships on a single planet.  Always looking for more optimizations!

His X-ness needs to think about how to handle the AI Modifier of "Nuclear Command" and it's interaction with Lightning Missiles. :) It certainly makes the game faster to play, though not particularly easier from experience.

I'm not too worried about the different AI Modifiers causing balance issues; they are intended to be unbalancing in one way or another.  I basically view them like the mutators in Unreal Tournament.  You can get some fun, different styles of play, but some of them are harder or easier than others.

As mentioned in other threads the Turtle AI's are relative pansies in comparison to other AI types due to latest upgrades, the only real challenge is making it through the wormhole.

Yep, still on the list. There's just so much on the list that I haven't gotten to this one.  But I have not forgotten it! :)

A mistake I made was relying too much on Mark I ships. It's not worth bothering with any of the I mobile ships as a consequence of the game bogging down so much when you do use hordes of them, much better just using your start (plus 8-homeworld) knowledge on II turrets and II ships, and III turrets if you've got any left and start cranking those out.

Hopefully with some auto-grouping logic, you'll be able to play in that sort of scenario without bogging the game down.  We shall see.

I found the I turrets are somewhat useful in heavily enemy-trafficed areas, since it doesn't really matter if they die you just rebuild a few dozen more with ctrl-shift-clicks since they're relatively quick to build. All things considered though it'd probably be worth shaving off 30 seconds from the time to build the short/missile/tachyon I turrets since they die relatively quickly (so you don't get to use the resource-free repairs on them), and it would give them a good niche to use when you're trying to recover after an attack before the next wave hits. Toss some of those rather then the II/III's and you have some defense even if the others don't build in time.

Yeah, that seems reasonable to me.  I think all the turrets could actually stand to be built around 30 seconds faster than at present.  I'd been thinking something similar myself already based on my own games, so I'm glad to see you also were thinking along the same lines (though I had not come up with the number of 30 seconds, I was just thinking it needed to be faster).

Main constraint in the game seems to be Energy. AI level doesn't really matter since they're throwing so much stuff at you already that you never really notice the difference increasing. The only thing you really notice is the II/III level change, and even then you're getting hit with a lot of III stuff before then (such as bombers) that it's also a relatively small defensive adjustment.

Interesting.  With 8 actual players in more diversified holdings, that's likely to be a very different experience.

Starships at this level are relatively worthless. Their munitions booster affect is tiny in comparison to the size of the fleet they need to keep them alive. I ended up upgrading all levels of all the starships, but ended up pretty much just building them all and tossing them into my fleets and ignoring them.

Well, dreadnoughts in particular are good against the enemy starships, which makes them useful.  I think that having one player try to manage 8 players' worth of ships in an already huge game is mostly the problem here.  If there were 8 of you working together in tandem, you'd have no problem, but as it is it's just too much to manage with one person and you wind up having to group your stuff in ways that 8 players wouldn't actually do.

One shiptype I did find particularly useful early-ish on was the raid starship, but they really need some cloaking+cloak boosting so you can do the proper hit-and-run guerrilla type thing, and like the scout starships they also really need a bit of auto-repair so you can use them more thematically as starships that survive away from "home space".

I really don't want to cloak raid starships, as they are already so powerful to begin with.  Perhaps a Mark III variant of raid/leech starships that has cloaking, that could be cool.  Added to my list: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1085.0.html.  Same with the scout starship, I'm disinclined to change what is there, but I think you've got a great idea for II/III variants of the same.  Also added to my list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1086.0.html

As much as I'd hate it from the AI perspective, the Leech Starships would probably benefit from cloaking+cloak boosting+auto repair as well. That way you could use the scout/leech/raid starship trio (plus, say, a force of cloaked ships like the space planes and such) as some form of deep-assault setup to take out particularly annoying ion cannons, or data centers and the like. Would give that upgrade tree a more distinct flavour like the other starship upgrade trees have.

I think basically the Mark III ship in that class would be a leech ship with cloaking and maybe a bit more power to it.  I agree, that would be cool and distinctive, but I think it needs to be further into the tree (like Spire), rather than at the Mark I/II level.

Tractor Beam Turret III's take the same amount of time to build as the II's, which seems out of pattern compared to the other turrets.

Just saw that when I was fixing the build times.  Fixed!

Lightning Turret build-time: O.o

Yeah, so I noticed.  I just downed that by about half.

That's all for now, though I will probably think of other things after I hit send. :)

Isn't that always the way? :)
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Offline Fiskbit

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Does the AI still retreat much in this version? I got a couple waves of bombers and cruisers and they all headed toward my home command station, but I had 120 fighters to deal with the nearly 200 cruisers from behind (so the bombers couldn't protect them) and 158 cruisers at my home command station protecting it from the bombers. The ships marched on and I lost next to nothing. I can't say I've noticed the AI's waves retreat lately, but maybe it's just 'good' luck.
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Offline x4000

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Does the AI still retreat much in this version? I got a couple waves of bombers and cruisers and they all headed toward my home command station, but I had 120 fighters to deal with the nearly 200 cruisers from behind (so the bombers couldn't protect them) and 158 cruisers at my home command station protecting it from the bombers. The ships marched on and I lost next to nothing. I can't say I've noticed the AI's waves retreat lately, but maybe it's just 'good' luck.

Yes, the AI retreat logic has not been particularly changed.  It takes them around 30 second to decide to do so, however, because otherwise often there is just not enough time to make sure that all their forces are there (if they are coming cross-planet).  I intend to revisit part of that logic in the future, and make them more aware of how many ships they have incoming and act accordingly.
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Offline x4000

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Offline darke

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His X-ness needs to think about how to handle the AI Modifier of "Nuclear Command" and it's interaction with Lightning Missiles. :) It certainly makes the game faster to play, though not particularly easier from experience.

I'm not too worried about the different AI Modifiers causing balance issues; they are intended to be unbalancing in one way or another.  I basically view them like the mutators in Unreal Tournament.  You can get some fun, different styles of play, but some of them are harder or easier than others.

By the look of things it would have taken me under 4 hours to kill 2 AI. So it was a bit faster. ;) Though it had taken me probably over 10 hours according to the wall clock for that, most of the time spent in the last hour and a half. Between having to save and load for various things and often it was taking 10 real seconds for a game second to tick over as well, it dragged out a little. :)

As mentioned in other threads the Turtle AI's are relative pansies in comparison to other AI types due to latest upgrades, the only real challenge is making it through the wormhole.

Yep, still on the list. There's just so much on the list that I haven't gotten to this one.  But I have not forgotten it! :)

I figured. :)

Yeah, that seems reasonable to me.  I think all the turrets could actually stand to be built around 30 seconds faster than at present.  I'd been thinking something similar myself already based on my own games, so I'm glad to see you also were thinking along the same lines (though I had not come up with the number of 30 seconds, I was just thinking it needed to be faster).

My number was more about thinking in terms of how long it normally takes to get a few ships to wander through your homeworld at the start of the game, and the time delay between alert and when the ships arrive in waves. Both instances seem to be about the 45 seconds to a minute. So I figured having your base level turrets build just after things arrived would give you incentive to think a little bit further ahead, or at the start of the game give you a little assault that will annoy your harvesters and such, but not actually be too threatning since the turrets are completed relatively soon after. :)

This is the reason I don't mind the higher ones being quite a bit slower then the mark I turrets since that gives the I's a reason to always be useful as a stop gap measure.

Main constraint in the game seems to be Energy. AI level doesn't really matter since they're throwing so much stuff at you already that you never really notice the difference increasing. The only thing you really notice is the II/III level change, and even then you're getting hit with a lot of III stuff before then (such as bombers) that it's also a relatively small defensive adjustment.

Interesting.  With 8 actual players in more diversified holdings, that's likely to be a very different experience.

Possibly. I think the main reason that I'm energy limited is that in an 8 player game, each player potentially has 1/8th of the number of planets, so 1/8th of the number of resources and energy. Resources however in single player games decrease by the number of them you have, so even in a single player game you're quickly getting to the point of maybe having half of the potential resources (due to lossage), but still 100% of the potential energy, wereas in multiplayer they'll have about 1/8th of the potential resources (because they'll be minimal to no loss), but a hard-ish cap on 1/8th of the potential energy. (If that makes sense?)

For example my forces were pretty much only Tech I's (in fact they were all I's except for the starships and whatever I'd parasited from the enemies, which wasn't all that much this time), and I was continually bouncing up against the energy limits even with 3x I/2x II/1x III per world.

I have the feeling there's something wrong in the balance here, I just can't put my finger on it.

Starships at this level are relatively worthless. Their munitions booster affect is tiny in comparison to the size of the fleet they need to keep them alive. I ended up upgrading all levels of all the starships, but ended up pretty much just building them all and tossing them into my fleets and ignoring them.

Well, dreadnoughts in particular are good against the enemy starships, which makes them useful.  I think that having one player try to manage 8 players' worth of ships in an already huge game is mostly the problem here.  If there were 8 of you working together in tandem, you'd have no problem, but as it is it's just too much to manage with one person and you wind up having to group your stuff in ways that 8 players wouldn't actually do.

I was getting to thinking along those lines as well. I think if I'd concentrated on getting II/III ships, rather then I's (or could otherwise somehow upgrade my I force into II/III's at some point), starships would have been much more useful simply because of the extra damage they'd be giving my far smaller amount of ships.

I really don't want to cloak raid starships, as they are already so powerful to begin with.  Perhaps a Mark III variant of raid/leech starships that has cloaking, that could be cool.  Added to my list: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1085.0.html.  Same with the scout starship, I'm disinclined to change what is there, but I think you've got a great idea for II/III variants of the same.  Also added to my list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1086.0.html

I think basically the Mark III ship in that class would be a leech ship with cloaking and maybe a bit more power to it.  I agree, that would be cool and distinctive, but I think it needs to be further into the tree (like Spire), rather than at the Mark I/II level.

#include <Yay>

That's all for now, though I will probably think of other things after I hit send. :)

Isn't that always the way? :)

Interestingly enough, in this instance I actually didn't think of anything. Which is rather scary. O.o