Prerelease 1.201E (Econ fixes, last planet gfx updates, new force field gfx)

[x4000]

The new forcefield graphic is neat, but defensive things that have some kind of range such as tachyon drones use this same graphic, which is kind of strange. I vote that those non-forcefield units go back to using either the old graphic or some new graphic (perhaps something as simple as just a plain one-color filled circle).

Yes.

Also, any thought on having the energy display when low on energy be some sort of hotkey or toggle? It's useful, but if I know I'm low on energy, I don't want to have to look at these numbers because they're rather large relative to everything else, particularly when zoomed way out, and can obstruct view of the ship.

I see this as partly being like the little energy icon popup in SimCity, honestly.  It's already on my list to have a hotkey that lets you see these energy displays at any time, so I'll make it so that holding that when they are displaying will hide them while you do.

Edit: Have starship constructors stopped showing the in-progress starship? Is this because it was confusing players? If so, I'm sure there are other ways to make it clear why a starship hasn't come out of its constructor yet due to energy constraints, such as a flashing building. If it's gone for good, then perhaps lower the radius of these constructors, since they're massive considering their graphic, presumably to display in-progress ships.

Not that I am aware of.

I like that idea: if a ship can't be built due to insufficient energy, then it might be helpful if that constructor would flash.

I like it, too.

Edit 2: When you lose, the bright white 'explosion' is now a fade to black that abruptly returns to normal from complete blackness. Please bring back the old one.

Whoops, I was experimenting around with that and forgot to change it back.

[x4000]

Having started a new game on the same map, I think I can still run an empire off 4 planets. It is definitely not as easy as before though: my resources are much more limited now and my knowledge is a bit more constrained (bought the II Orbitals, and I think I'll buy the III Orbitals later on).

It may also help that I'm using a very "green" energy-conservation strategy (provisionally dubbed the Kyoto strategy)
- I'm not using turrets: I'm not defending the wormhole entrances into my two border worlds, but I'm defending the wormhole exits on my border worlds that lead to my home world, and this is done by a forcefield and a fleet, most of which shuttles between the two border worlds as attacks come in.
- I'm not building I fighters and I parasites anymore, and once I research III bombers, my I bombers will go out as well. If I get to the point where I have to use mercenaries, I will stop using I cruisers.
- I scrap most of the I ships that I capture. I mothball the II, III, IV and C ships I capture and store them on the homeworld (for emergency defense or for special uses). Once I have plenty of captures, the IIs are scrapped as well.
- I use only two research stations, not all of my engineers and not all of my forcefields
- I currently have a I, II and III reactor on each world, and am thinking about adding another II and two more Is
- Once I find an Advanced Factory, I may use it as a fifth world, adding 25% to my energy

All of the above hurts aplenty, but it keeps the AI fairly quiet. I'm not sure if it is abusive yet. I'll keep you updated on how it goes.

I think I have the solution for that -- more of a carrot than a stick, really.  Basically I am going to use darke's idea of capturable research ships in a slightly more extreme way:

- I'll be adding an extra 2,000 knowledge to the costs of all of the main space-dock-based tech III/IV units.  That seems fair, given that you get BOTH tech III and IV units out of each unlock.
- To compensate for this, I'll scatter some 4,000-knowledge-bearing capturable research ships around the galaxy.  If you take the planet, they become yours like an Advanced Factory and everyone on the team gets an immediate 4k knowledge from them.  Then they act pretty much as a fixed-position science lab.
- The catch would be that these ships would also have a +60 AI Progress penalty if they are destroyed.  So you'd be forced to either defend this other planet you have taken, or give it up and take the AI Progress penalty, whatever you prefer.

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

[Haagenti]

I think I have the solution for that -- more of a carrot than a stick, really.  Basically I am going to use darke's idea of capturable research ships in a slightly more extreme way:

- I'll be adding an extra 2,000 knowledge to the costs of all of the main space-dock-based tech III/IV units.  That seems fair, given that you get BOTH tech III and IV units out of each unlock.

Note that this can completely screw over some starting positions where you start close to IV planets with Ion Guns. These are mostly (always) level II Ion Guns and require a significant supply of III ships to kill. Not sure how bad this is.

- To compensate for this, I'll scatter some 4,000-knowledge-bearing capturable research ships around the galaxy.  If you take the planet, they become yours like an Advanced Factory and everyone on the team gets an immediate 4k knowledge from them.  Then they act pretty much as a fixed-position science lab.
- The catch would be that these ships would also have a +60 AI Progress penalty if they are destroyed.  So you'd be forced to either defend this other planet you have taken, or give it up and take the AI Progress penalty, whatever you prefer.

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Too little reward for too much pain (at least in single player). I can get 4000 knowledge by knowledge raiding two planets.
- Then I don't have to defend this station
- I don't run any risk of a +60AI catastrophe
- I'm not docked 20 AI progress for conquering the planet
- I'm not making a new set of neighbours aware of me

Right now I'm not always conquering Advanced Factories for this reason: I can parasite the IVs I really need (Cruisers and Fighters) and some of the AI specials. I can live without IV bombers and IV parasites.

My advice: Do nothing for a while. Let me find out if my strategy works out over this weekend.

Note that:
- I play this game a lot so I may be (puffs out chest) better than the average player
- I have to make significant sacrifices and it is not easy
- I'm only in for three hours or so it may get harder later on

Also note that most of the pain is caused by adding the III Energy Generator. The original idea (as I dimly remember it) was to allow it to feed into forcefields (which it doesn't do right now). Yet you have changed a lot of your economy and now you are changing research to accommodate this III Energy Reactor. I see mothballing, increased energy use of ships and turrets, reactors using resources, etc. etc.

Why is there a III Energy Reactor?

[x4000]

All good so far.  Looks like the end of your text got cut off, though.  (And by the way, I love your sig. )

[Haagenti]

It's there now.

Can I add III Energy Reactors to my .sig?

[x4000]

It's there now.

Can I add III Energy Reactors to my .sig?

I cannot remove Mark III Energy Reactors, simply because it would break all sorts of savegames at this point (not as in unbalancing them, as in making them unable to function if there is a removed unit in there).  Part of me was thinking about making energy IIIs just something that you find and capture, but then that would be unbalancing for the players who already have them.

So instead, I am thinking more of nerfing them.  Ideas:
- Halve their energy output, but leave their cost the same, so that they are a very poor value (yet still a way to get more energy with fewer planets if you absolutely must).
- Have some sort of other Bad Effect that happens when they are present, such as increased energy waves or something.

The only problem with all of this is that, for the moment, the game is balanced pretty well while also having these in there.  If I nerf them too majorly or take them out completely, then suddenly everyone is short on energy and the game is even harder at the start for new players compared to those with more experience.

For the moment, since things are relatively quiet with the release at this point, I think I will just leave well enough alone so that this 1.201 release can actually happen.  Might need some more balancing at some point in the future in order to encourage expansion, but I'm not sure that messing more with the economy/energy is the way to go.  That just risks making it too difficult and fiddly for new players.

In some ways, you are playing kind of like how I played SupCom with the Aeon.  I never would expand beyond a certain point that I could really defend very well, and that was just how I liked to play.  It worked very well for me, but it was not the way most people played the game.  I think that sort of variance is all right, as long as it doesn't make things game-breakingly easy for you.  I don't think most players will follow this strategy simply because they won't want to.

It's definitely a head-scratcher, but at this point I think the situation is a lot better than it was a week or two ago, at least.

[darke]

Given I'm only just squeaking through with enough energy in my AI10/8-world-start game with 3x I/2x II/1x III per world, I'm guessing anyone who plays multi-player would be out for Haagenti's head if you removed the III's. Since it doesn't appear that the negative resource energy scaling is altered in multi-player (or at least in this form of single-player-multi-player).

Anyone actually played a serious multi-player game with this new econ setup yet?

[x4000]

I did last weekend, but a lot has changed since then.  I will be again tonight.  Energy was not a limiter last week, but then I always take a fair number of planets anyway.

[Admiral]

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Fun idea!

[x4000]

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Fun idea!

Of course, Haag already shot it down, haha.

[Admiral]

Why is there a III Energy Reactor?

I asked something basically like that a few days ago too. It did seem at the time that, despite my really wanting it (for my large, uncapped parasite-stolen fleets), its implementation has had many second (and higher) order knock-on effects on balance.

[Admiral]

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Fun idea!

Of course, Haag already shot it down, haha.

Maybe so, but there is no reason not to include some other ships where you could:

a) Destroy it before taking the planet and hence lose the benefit and consequent need to defend it

b) Take the planet, capture the ship for an immediate benefit, but then have the long-term AI Progress-defending requirement to keep it alive

I liked the concept of "you could take this, but then you need to defend it" - it gives the player a choice.

[x4000]

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Fun idea!

Of course, Haag already shot it down, haha.

Maybe so, but there is no reason not to include some other ships where you could:

a) Destroy it before taking the planet and hence lose the benefit and consequent need to defend it

b) Take the planet, capture the ship for an immediate benefit, but then have the long-term AI Progress-defending requirement to keep it alive

I liked the concept of "you could take this, but then you need to defend it" - it gives the player a choice.

Oh, yeah -- I definitely plan to add stuff like that, either way.  But granting more knowledge without upping the knowledge costs somewhere else might be unbalancing.  Although, with the various drawbacks it has, maybe not.  Maybe if I implement this idea but leave the Mark III techs alone (and only have 1 or 2 of these per map), that would be enough.  Thoughts?

[darke]

That way you can't just game the AI Progress into being too low, even if you do take only a few planets as your core protection area.  Thoughts?

Fun idea!

Of course, Haag already shot it down, haha.

Probably because you make your carrots and sticks a little too big, or something?

Given the goal is to crush Haagenti's tactic like the grumpy-parasite-hating-person's tactic is it (yeah, still miffed about the parasite capping thing ), why not just try to viciously crush his tactic head on, whilst minimally inconveniencing everyone else?

Idea take two:

Drop the amount of knowledge per planet by 500.
Scatter 0-3 capturable-mini-lab-thingies on each planet worth 500 each.
Mini-lab-thingies should have high health, incredibly low chance of attack (basically in the "will attack if there's nothing else around, or if it happens to be moving past to attack a real target" bracket since there's no threat to the AI to have them there, it just gives them a small benefit when they're gone), and cost something reasonable when lost (+10AI?).

That way only if you don't want to defend the planet, or suck at defending the planet, or are just plain unlucky, you loose AI, otherwise you don't.

If you dropped the base knowledge per planet to 1000 and increased the number of mini-lab-thingies to 1-4, you'd nerf things even more. But you'd probably have to halve the knowledge acquisition speed of the research labs to compensate.

You could even make the mini-lab-thingies "self research" the knowledge over time as well, so you don't get a chunk of knowledge with each planet taken over. Not that it really matters in the long run the way the game works though.

(Only a little bitter about the parasites. Really! )

[x4000]

Darke -- I'm not wanting to reduce the current amount of knowledge gathered per planet, as I think that would cause all sorts of confusion (and, as you say, the need for reduced science lab intake rates, which would be frustrating to watch move so slowly, and which would have to move to non-integer numbers, which I'm not thrilled about).  In general I think you make a lot of great points, but I want to balance this with knowledge costs and extra knowledge stores, not by limiting the existing amount of knowledge possible on each planet.  Just seems the least destructive to me.

Anyway, we'll see where this goes over the next little while.  For now, new release:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1047.msg6641.html#msg6641