Author Topic: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)  (Read 5244 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2009, 02:43:10 pm »
Very, very interesting idea with the mercenary ships! I can't wait to try it. Who came up with it? I assume you as there is no credit in the 1014.txt file.

Yep, that was me -- I still come up with my own ideas for the game from time to time, despite all the floods of ideas from other people that I'm implementing. ;) Glad you like it!

I don't know if this is a good idea, but would it be possible to add the starting "racial" special to the list of ships it can build? I understand why you limited it to just the core three (easier to balance that way, among other things), but it could be considered that the "starting four" are really your core fleet that you build your strategies upon.

I'd have to make a lot more mercenary ships in order to do this, which I'm not real excited about doing.  If I make more mercenary ships, I think they will be some specialists that are all-new.  A parasite-based one is something I am considering, and there are some other ones also that I have interest in creating.  But the idea is that the roster of mercenaries would be the same in every game, and that there might even be some ships in there that you can't get any other way, rather that just being a more-expensive version of all of the other ship types in the game.  Beyond the basic trio, it gives me some flexibility to implement some little niche military ship ideas that I have floating around in my head -- but which don't really deserve to be a full ship class in themselves.  I had been thinking about making some sort of space dock that you can capture in order to build those sorts of niche ships, but instead the mercenary ships are the way I will likely handle that, which I'm pretty excited about.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Revenantus

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,063
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2009, 03:48:53 pm »
I'd suggest that Mercenaries shouldn't require the corresponding MkII ships to be unlocked in order to build them. The mercenaries are so expensive that this restriction isn't necessary and it's thematically inconsistent anyway. If the player wants to spend a huge amount of resources on mercenary ships at the beginning of the game, let them, it'll put them at a disadvantage.

The mercenary system could also be developed further, for example, I think it should have a completely different model to the standard space docks. Purchased ships should appear instantly, but there should only be so many available for purchase at any time. Recruitable ships could vary by planet, and precisely what's available could rotate every so often. Recruiting a passing band of Zinth fighters could be cool. :)

As Fiskbit pointed out in another thread, I agree with him that the addition of mercenaries is not a solution to the excess resource problem. It's just alleviated it somewhat, the current situation is "I've built everything, well, nothing better to do than buy some mercenaries", while previously it was the considerably more interesting, "I can't afford everything, where would my resources be best used?". Essentially, having fewer resources will create more interesting decisions.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2009, 03:58:01 pm »
Here is an idea, have mercenaries cost some rate - of resources, per ship 0.5 or 1 or something like it, that way 100 ships could cost -50 rate , 1000 -500 etc.

And have them be different rates, one metal, one crystal, one both?
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline RogueDeus

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2009, 07:28:52 pm »
Merc. Space Dock build time for Merc. Bombers resets when you have engineers assisting the Dock. With 1 eng it goes from 15 secs to 28 secs. Putting an eng to assist and then removing it, and re-assisting the dock also has a wierd effect on the remaining build time for the bombers. (Have not taken time to figure it out)

This doesn't happen for fighters or cruisers.

Rogue.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus

Offline RogueDeus

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2009, 07:38:41 pm »
AI controlled Mk.3 & 4 Bombers (could also be other Mk's too but have not seen it directly) are not being targeted by my Mk.1 Missile/MLRS/SR-Turret(s) but are being fired at by my sniper turrets. I can not even manually target them with said turrets. I have not tries targeting them with higher Mk. turrets yet.

This and the above bug was only noticed in v1.014S BTW.

FYI:
The SR and MLRS turrets do not have the 'Mark' in their names. :) This a typo?

Rogue.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus

Offline CautiousChaos

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2009, 09:40:39 pm »
As Fiskbit pointed out in another thread, I agree with him that the addition of mercenaries is not a solution to the excess resource problem. It's just alleviated it somewhat, the current situation is "I've built everything, well, nothing better to do than buy some mercenaries", while previously it was the considerably more interesting, "I can't afford everything, where would my resources be best used?". Essentially, having fewer resources will create more interesting decisions.

I am fully in agreement with this sentiment.  I found the tension was enjoyably higher when I was scrapping for resources.  What do I build, how many, and when.  It also gave me an incentive to expand and take other planets.  As it stands today, I've got all and more of the resources I need with two planets.  Now I just jump everything into transports and raid into other planets that have datacenters and such.  Being incented to take other planets gets more resources, but also jumps up the AI level, which makes for very interesting decision making and tension.
-cc

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2009, 10:36:52 pm »
I'd suggest that Mercenaries shouldn't require the corresponding MkII ships to be unlocked in order to build them. The mercenaries are so expensive that this restriction isn't necessary and it's thematically inconsistent anyway. If the player wants to spend a huge amount of resources on mercenary ships at the beginning of the game, let them, it'll put them at a disadvantage.

Good point.  Changed for the next version.

The mercenary system could also be developed further, for example, I think it should have a completely different model to the standard space docks. Purchased ships should appear instantly, but there should only be so many available for purchase at any time. Recruitable ships could vary by planet, and precisely what's available could rotate every so often. Recruiting a passing band of Zinth fighters could be cool. :)

That's really a different kind of mercenaries model than what I have in mind.  It's something similar to what I've seen in other games, but I was never as fond of those because they require so much micromanagement as well as periodic checking.  Maybe "mercenaries" is a bad word to use for the concept I'm trying to advance here, but it was the best thing I could think of and I think it is fitting in general.  I basically just want to have ships including a few niche classes that are nowhere else, all of which are expensive but uncapped, and which are as easy to build and manage as everything else that is queue-based.

Recruiting passing Zinth starships, or whatever, would probably instead be handled via trade with the Zinth in a future expansion.  I think that's basically the concept you are going for, where you spend the resources one time and then they appear instantly, and in the case of the Zinth trading it will also include a lot of specialized alien ships that you can't get any other way.  That's really where I see a concept like that coming into play, but it's for an expansion focused on the Zinth.

As Fiskbit pointed out in another thread, I agree with him that the addition of mercenaries is not a solution to the excess resource problem. It's just alleviated it somewhat, the current situation is "I've built everything, well, nothing better to do than buy some mercenaries", while previously it was the considerably more interesting, "I can't afford everything, where would my resources be best used?". Essentially, having fewer resources will create more interesting decisions.

Okay, well, this is true enough.  I'll respond more in the other thread, but my hope is basically that making resources finite per planet will help.  The main problem is that I don't want people to have too much downtime while waiting for stuff to rebuild, or waiting for resources.  And with lower resource rates in the new flow-based economy, it is just far too easy to tank your economy -- the old model could only support two simultaneous space docks, with no engineers assisting them.  Anything more and your economy would periodically tank. 

I'm not saying it is balanced perfectly now, but basically I generally like the inflow numbers compared to the outflow numbers at present, and I'd like to balance this in other ways.  But perhaps I'll change it so that harvesters only generate +10 instead of +12, and see what that change does.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2009, 10:37:24 pm »
Here is an idea, have mercenaries cost some rate - of resources, per ship 0.5 or 1 or something like it, that way 100 ships could cost -50 rate , 1000 -500 etc.

And have them be different rates, one metal, one crystal, one both?

I really just want to keep them simple, at present! :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2009, 10:38:00 pm »
Merc. Space Dock build time for Merc. Bombers resets when you have engineers assisting the Dock. With 1 eng it goes from 15 secs to 28 secs. Putting an eng to assist and then removing it, and re-assisting the dock also has a wierd effect on the remaining build time for the bombers. (Have not taken time to figure it out)

This doesn't happen for fighters or cruisers.

Rogue.

Thanks for the note!  Great first post.  I will see what I can figure out about that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2009, 10:41:02 pm »
AI controlled Mk.3 & 4 Bombers (could also be other Mk's too but have not seen it directly) are not being targeted by my Mk.1 Missile/MLRS/SR-Turret(s) but are being fired at by my sniper turrets. I can not even manually target them with said turrets. I have not tries targeting them with higher Mk. turrets yet.

This and the above bug was only noticed in v1.014S BTW.

Most likely those ships are out of range.  Bombers have very high shields, which reduces the effective range of your turret.  Please see this for reference.  If you have your turrets selected and hover over the enemy bombers, you can see that their hit chance is most likely 0%.

The SR and MLRS turrets do not have the 'Mark' in their names. :) This a typo?

The Mark II and III versions do -- that's consistent with the other ships.  The Mark I versions never say mark I (or at least they shouldn't).  I think there was a bug with a number of ships prior to 1.014 prereleases where some of them just said "II" instead of "Mark II."  Please let me know if I'm missing something, though!

(And, by the way, welcome to the forums!  Glad to have you here:))
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline RogueDeus

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2009, 11:30:04 pm »
Most likely those ships are out of range.  Bombers have very high shields, which reduces the effective range of your turret.  Please see this for reference.  If you have your turrets selected and hover over the enemy bombers, you can see that their hit chance is most likely 0%.

That explains it. Thanks.

The Mark II and III versions do -- that's consistent with the other ships.  The Mark I versions never say mark I (or at least they shouldn't).  I think there was a bug with a number of ships prior to 1.014 prereleases where some of them just said "II" instead of "Mark II."  Please let me know if I'm missing something, though!

(And, by the way, welcome to the forums!  Glad to have you here:))

I forgot to mention... The 'Mark' is missing from the research listing names. :)
(Proof Attacjed)

"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2009, 11:32:27 pm »
Most likely those ships are out of range.  Bombers have very high shields, which reduces the effective range of your turret.  Please see this for reference.  If you have your turrets selected and hover over the enemy bombers, you can see that their hit chance is most likely 0%.

That explains it. Thanks.

No problem!

I forgot to mention... The 'Mark' is missing from the research listing names. :)

Ah, there it is!  Yeah, I haven't gotten to localizing that part yet, or I would have found it.  Thanks for the tip!  That's definitely a subtle one.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline RogueDeus

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2009, 11:32:43 pm »
Thanks for the note!  Great first post.  I will see what I can figure out about that.

Most welcome.
I am a gaming die hard that is actually looking to follow in your footsteps, as far as game design goes.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 1.014S (Mercenary Ships, Revamped Cross-Planet Attacks)
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2009, 11:38:14 pm »
I am a gaming die hard that is actually looking to follow in your footsteps, as far as game design goes.

Very cool, best of luck with that!  We always need more indie developers out there making cool stuff. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!