Author Topic: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)  (Read 2256 times)

Offline x4000

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Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« on: August 15, 2009, 12:01:31 pm »
The Latest prerelease is now out: http://www.arcengames.com/share/AIWar1014F.zip

That version is an upgrade from version 1.013, so you have to already have 1.013 (or greater) installed. Just unzip it into your game folder (usually C:\Program Files\Arcen Games\AI War\ unless you specified something else). Please make sure that your unzip process keeps the folder structure from the zip file, rather than just unpacking all of the files into the base target directory.

What's new since 1.014E:
(Cumulative release notes since 1.013 are attached at the bottom)

-------------------

-Metal/crystal harvesters each now produce 12 of their resources instead of 6.

-The amounts that metal and crystal manufactories produce has also been doubled.  

CHANGES FROM PAST PRERELEASES
--------------

-The ellipses in the header for the metal/crystal rates has been changed to an equals sign, for better clarity.

-The reported metal/crystal outflows (in aggregate, and per constructor) now show the max amounts, not the current amounts, which prevents the numbers from fluctuating around so much and makes planning easier.

-The build speed for dock-based ships is now 4x as fast as before, which means fewer docks can be sustained simultaneously, but they will be more productive.

-The build speed for starship constructors has been quartered, making them cost less in terms of resources per second, but also making them take longer to build starships like they used to.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 03:04:30 am by x4000 »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 12:08:30 pm »
Reasons for these changes, before anyone cries foul:

Given that basic ships are approximately the same cost that they have always been, and it's possible to make use of all the resources at your disposal, it can't actually take longer to build a fleet.

And yet, it does.  I'm actually with Darkreaver1980 on this one, I was getting really frustrated with how long it was taking to do stuff in my game last night, and I was having too few ships to really accomplish much.  Not sure what the cause is here, although I did rebalance the costs of cruiers upward a bit and I think that's part of it.

Of course, this may be a factor:

1. Say you have a ship that costs 500 metal and 1000 crystal.
2. Assume that, with enough docks, you can produce the same number of these in the new system as in the old.
3. Note that crystal is only being expended 50% of the time in the new system, which results in build times that are 2x as long.  Or something like that.

Check out the new prerelease (and then I'm out for the day, for real):  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,727.msg4276.html#msg4276

This may lower difficulty a bit, but that's okay because there are certainly plenty of difficulty levels out there.  The difficulty of level 7 has been creeping upwards steadily over the last few months, and this will rebalance everything a bit downwards, while also empowering the player more.  I think it's telling that darke plays on a handicap all the time.  It's more fun to be doing stuff than waiting around, and hopefully these economic changes will favor that.

Also, the AI is only going to be getting harder and more devious, so the difficulty is just going to creep back up again anyway.  In the meantime I want the player to feel empowered rather than frustratingly slow.  Fun factor is something I guard pretty ferociously, on par with the level of strategy.  If the game isn't fun, it doesn't matter how strategic it is, and in the current resource model, balanced as it was, I was getting a bit frustrated myself.  Hopefully the new version is better tuned, but I'll be interested to hear what people think of it.
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Offline Darkreaver1980

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 12:10:32 pm »
Thank you alot! *celebrates*

I was about to cry about the new building times :P

I will edit this post and write about the new version

edit: wow, realy nice change! I thought +12 metal/crystal would be alot but its realy not that much. I'm currently in a multiplayer game, the start was realy nice and fluit. We captured both a planet by the 7-8 minute mark and there is allways something to do.

Things we noticed: harvester produce now 12/12 but how about command stations? they still have the old value. Would be nice if all 3 Command Stations would get a boost too. Starships take now realy a long time, would be nice if more engineer would be allowed to speed it even more up.

other thing i noticed...command station mark 2 takes realy long to be build (over 4 minutes) and you cant speed it up. The mark 3 does take even longer
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 12:40:32 pm by Darkreaver1980 »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 12:36:03 pm »
;D

I think the economy is still a bit too low though (ok, that came out from nowhere, but let me explain)

Now you can produce about 240 ships in 15 minutes - i think that value should be closer to 500 (so doubling it again or giving ability to research better rates?) This is why i play at +100% - i want 500~ ships in 15 minutes

I don't see why there are complaints about speed though - there is a handicap setting which allows you to balance the game speed yourself (+100% is very nice imo)

(Thats the entire batch of Mk1 ships by the way)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 01:39:38 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Darkreaver1980

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 02:16:25 pm »
after 2 hours of playing with Oewyn i still have the feeling that even with the huge economy boost the game is still alot slower than before. Maybe its because the command posts still have the old harvesting values

Also the starship build times seem to bit over the top...71 minutes for a flagship. shipdock build times are nice now. I also noticed that the ai is realy passive. In the 2 hours the entrenched Homeworldler (AI 7) did nothing, just like the other AI 4. a few waves with 30 ships, nothing dangerous at all
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 03:04:38 pm by Darkreaver1980 »

Offline Oewyn

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2009, 02:48:22 pm »
You may want to look at adjusting the research upgrades for the MK II and MK III orbital command station since the harvester modification.  Makes the research kind of pointless imo for such a small amount of change.

Also, i'm new here but why exactly do harvesters suffer from efficiency issues?  I seemed to be experiencing decreased collection rate after capturing even 1 planet.

-Oewyn

Offline Revenantus

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2009, 02:52:05 pm »
You're correct that harvesters suffer from efficiency issues, as you capture more and more resource deposits across the galaxy you will receive a diminishing return from each new one, down to a minimum of +1 per resource deposit. You can hover over a harvester to determine how much it's producing.

This is mainly to encourage resource sharing in multiplayer (efficiency is determined on a per player basis), and also partly to prevent the accumulation of really excessive amounts of resources in single-player.

EDIT: I almost forgot, welcome to the forum! :)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 02:55:55 pm by Revenantus »

Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 12:19:51 am »
This may lower difficulty a bit, but that's okay because there are certainly plenty of difficulty levels out there.  The difficulty of level 7 has been creeping upwards steadily over the last few months, and this will rebalance everything a bit downwards, while also empowering the player more.  I think it's telling that darke plays on a handicap all the time.  It's more fun to be doing stuff than waiting around, and hopefully these economic changes will favor that.

I've actually stopped playing on a higher handicap the last month or so (*gasp!*), mainly because of all the little economics changes and game balance changes made it hard to "rebalance" the AI/my bonuses so it felt like I was playing the same game difficulty, just a little faster. :) (100% for both never seemed to have that effect.)

I instead swapped to playing with multiple starting planets, usually 2, 4, or 8 (I avoid no more then 8 adjacent wormholes to the cluster of planets I need to defend, so that's how I end up picking things). It gave me the benefit of the extra boost at the start to get things going, without problem of hitting the 300k resource limits by the time you got half way through the game with the extra 100% bonus resources all the time. :)

Also, the AI is only going to be getting harder and more devious, so the difficulty is just going to creep back up again anyway.  In the meantime I want the player to feel empowered rather than frustratingly slow.  Fun factor is something I guard pretty ferociously, on par with the level of strategy.  If the game isn't fun, it doesn't matter how strategic it is, and in the current resource model, balanced as it was, I was getting a bit frustrated myself.  Hopefully the new version is better tuned, but I'll be interested to hear what people think of it.

On that note, I was noticing that even with this 8x planet AI10 start game, I was finding myself considerably resource constrained about 2 hours into the game. A collection of waves totaling around 300-600 Tech II ships hitting your planet every few minutes made it a bit of a challenge to keep the defenses up, especially for some reason that I was often seeing Tech III ships (usually bombers) clustered in them. I ended up in a perpetual defense mode since I never had quite enough resources to properly take up the offense.

Also more fortresses would be good. Or the ability to accelerate/heal them. They seem to be useful in choke points, and in 8x starting games, but you just get hit with so many ships that inevitably you lose one on a regular basis (almost every wave it seems?), that you need two or three per choke point to even out the damage and kill things quicker. That and they're, like, way expensive in comparison to damage output in comparison to starships.?Zinth are described as a "mobile fortress" , but the immobile fortress is a pansy in comparison (900 damage x 21 is nothing in comparison to 9800 x 9, especially since the Zinth attacks faster), even the Flagship is better then the fortress at the moment and it costs about the same knowledge. :) (This is all taking numbers from before the 014E starship boosting patch, so fortresses are even more pansies now :) ).

Offline freykin

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 01:45:44 am »
Maybe there should be a couple tiers of fortresses?  Like a Mk II and Mk III?  I know i would purchase them, I love the turrets and such.

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 02:15:33 am »
Maybe there should be a couple tiers of fortresses?  Like a Mk II and Mk III?  I know i would purchase them, I love the turrets and such.

Wow, that's so hilarious that you guys were talking about that today.  I had the same idea this afternoon, I figure a "knowledge free" mark I fortress would encourage players to use the lower-level ones, and then a couple of tiers of the higher level ones would make even more sense.

As for the rest of the comments here, from everyone, they are all noted.  More upgrades to come with the economy (will be out in a few minutes), plus also I am going to ramp up the AI wave strength to compensate for that.  Should make for a more active, interesting game all around -- you have more resources, but then the AI is also more aggressive-feeling.

That perpetual-defensive-mode feeling is what I really want to get away from, so your thoughts on how this is growing and changing are much appreciated.  The new economic model has thrown a lot of that off, even though it has improved predictability, but I think we're dialing it back in to the right "feel" in the new system.  The end result of these changes, then, should be a lot better in general.

More to come soon, I'll post another prerelease in a while for you to check out and see what you think.  I think we're moving in the right direction at the very least, but it just takes tuning.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.014F (Economy boost)
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 03:07:31 am »
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