Author Topic: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)  (Read 7316 times)

Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2009, 12:39:17 pm »
Hmm... Any chance you had captured an ion cannon or something like that on those planets?  I'll look into this more, though -- thanks for the added detail!

... that's actually quite possible. I do have a vague feeling that a couple of those times were me shuffling around a colony ship or engineer between wormholes, and that's usually when I'll be dealing with that in the middle of a still very-hostile world.

I'll make it so that the command posts (all varieties) are immune to being insta-killed, and hopefully that will solve this one, then!

I must admit I'm somewhat disappointed that my Ion Cannons have been nerfed. :)

Cool. I shall give it a try next time. (Since I want to finish this map with the current warp defense level; just to see how hard the end game worlds are. :) )

Actually, the wormhole defenses won't be adjusted one way or another in existing savegames, so you can update without worry of that.  The only adjustments I'm making are in how the map is seeded at the very start, so for maps that have already been started, they won't see that shift.

Cool.

And more bugs:

An engineer won't repair an engineer that has been damaged, if that engineer is in the "Accellerating Queue" state.

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2009, 01:29:41 pm »
I must admit I'm somewhat disappointed that my Ion Cannons have been nerfed. :)

I wouldn't really call that a serious nerfing... they can still kill all the mobile military units that are of an appropriate level, which is the important part! :)

An engineer won't repair an engineer that has been damaged, if that engineer is in the "Accellerating Queue" state.

That's actually not a bug, but by design.  Engineers can't repair other engineers that are busy.  It's primarily to keep engineers from repairing each other in big chains.  But, I can see how this would cause limitations when they are simply accelerating the queue, as you say, rather than healing... so, that's a place I'm willing to shift the desgin. :)
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Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2009, 02:32:32 pm »
An engineer won't repair an engineer that has been damaged, if that engineer is in the "Accellerating Queue" state.

That's actually not a bug, but by design.  Engineers can't repair other engineers that are busy.  It's primarily to keep engineers from repairing each other in big chains.  But, I can see how this would cause limitations when they are simply accelerating the queue, as you say, rather than healing... so, that's a place I'm willing to shift the desgin. :)

*imagines engineers repairing each other in a conga line*

That does make sense.

On a related topic, where are my Tech III Engineers? :) Just give the Tech I & II cloaking and you're all set for two new Tech III ones! You don't even need to change the images, they'll have a purple halo to differentiate them from I & II (which is more visible then the art difference between the two! :) ).

Yes, I did just play a game with close to 40 planets and not enough of the little buggers to go around. :) That was only on an 80 planet map, I've no idea how people playing 120 planets cope!

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2009, 03:02:08 pm »
*imagines engineers repairing each other in a conga line*

That does make sense.

Yeah, they used to do that.  I was really hard to kill a big cluster of them in a big "engineer group hug." :)

On a related topic, where are my Tech III Engineers? :) Just give the Tech I & II cloaking and you're all set for two new Tech III ones! You don't even need to change the images, they'll have a purple halo to differentiate them from I & II (which is more visible then the art difference between the two! :) ).

Yes, I did just play a game with close to 40 planets and not enough of the little buggers to go around. :) That was only on an 80 planet map, I've no idea how people playing 120 planets cope!

Wow, you must have been using a lot of engineers -- I'm curious what you were doing with all of them.  Generally I have around 4 active docks at once, and even if I have 3x engineers on all of those (which I usually don't), that's 12 engineers right there.  Then I tend to have an engineer or two on the various contested planets, roaming around, and as soon as the planet is no longer contested I move them away.

I'm not too excited about giving them cloaking, just because I think that would be a bit overpowerful, but perhaps more health and letting them keep the teleportation.  I've added it to my list.  I doubt that I personally will ever find a use for them, but that's just me -- I certainly want to support a lot of play styles and different strategies, and if the knowledge is worth it to you to have tons of engineers, then okay!  I'm actually really happy that you've clearly found something to do with them that I never thought of.
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2009, 03:25:16 pm »
Isn't using engineers to boost space docks only useful in an emergency?

To build a space dock and boost it using 3 engineers entails a total cost of 8200 Metal and 4100 Crystal. Using Mark III cruisers as an example this would allow you to pump out a cruiser every 7 seconds.

For a cost of 8000 Metal and 4000 Crystal I can build 8 space docks, with no engineers boosting the docks this allows me to build a Mark III cruiser every 3.75 seconds. Clearly this is much more efficient.

I have no where near the resource gather rate to sustain this level of production, let alone what it would be if I were utilising more docks, so engineer assistance would be futile. It would only be worth doing if I needed ships rapidly in order to defend a system and did not have time to build another dock.

Given that it is possible to have a whopping 30 space docks this is hardly restrictive, and the engineers are much more useful on repair duty. Still, I rarely manage to use up all my engineers in a game.

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2009, 03:35:40 pm »
Isn't using engineers to boost space docks only useful in an emergency?

To build a space dock and boost it using 3 engineers entails a total cost of 8200 Metal and 4100 Crystal. Using Mark III cruisers as an example this would allow you to pump out a cruiser every 7 seconds.

For a cost of 8000 Metal and 4000 Crystal I can build 8 space docks, with no engineers boosting the docks this allows me to build a Mark III cruiser every 3.75 seconds. Clearly this is much more efficient.

Very true -- this is why I don't have 3x engineers on all my docks.  However, the one advantage that engineers have is their mobility.  so, for example, I tend to build 6x engineers on my home planet for assisting space docks, and then shift them between planets as I decide to put up more forward space docks.  Over time, that's a pretty large savings as long as the engineers don't get killed.  With this strategy I do never wind up needing anywhere near even all the Mark I engineers, let alone any more -- but, I like I said above, to each his/her own.

I have no where near the resource gather rate to sustain this level of production, let alone what it would be if I were utilising more docks, so engineer assistance would be futile. It would only be worth doing if I needed ships rapidly in order to defend a system and did not have time to build another dock.

Given that it is possible to have a whopping 30 space docks this is hardly restrictive, and the engineers are much more useful on repair duty. Still, I rarely manage to use up all my engineers in a game.

Yup, same here.  The resources are limiting for me, also, way before I hit the engineer cap.  I've been sort of thinking of the mobile repair station as basically the honorary Mark III engineer.  It will be more useful once some of the current glitches are out of it, and once it has the space tugs to pull allied ships back to it for repairs.
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Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2009, 03:58:06 pm »
On a related topic, where are my Tech III Engineers? :) Just give the Tech I & II cloaking and you're all set for two new Tech III ones! You don't even need to change the images, they'll have a purple halo to differentiate them from I & II (which is more visible then the art difference between the two! :) ).

Yes, I did just play a game with close to 40 planets and not enough of the little buggers to go around. :) That was only on an 80 planet map, I've no idea how people playing 120 planets cope!

Wow, you must have been using a lot of engineers -- I'm curious what you were doing with all of them.  Generally I have around 4 active docks at once, and even if I have 3x engineers on all of those (which I usually don't), that's 12 engineers right there.  Then I tend to have an engineer or two on the various contested planets, roaming around, and as soon as the planet is no longer contested I move them away.

I'm not too excited about giving them cloaking, just because I think that would be a bit overpowerful, but perhaps more health and letting them keep the teleportation.  I've added it to my list.  I doubt that I personally will ever find a use for them, but that's just me -- I certainly want to support a lot of play styles and different strategies, and if the knowledge is worth it to you to have tons of engineers, then okay!  I'm actually really happy that you've clearly found something to do with them that I never thought of.

Hrm... last game had three or four active docks, plus Tech IV Factory, plus Starship factory, plus missile silo, each of which had 3 engineers on each, so that's 21 non-teleporting ones. For each planet with a wormhole that opens to a AI planet (that is, almost all of them) I have one teleport one on auto-repair, particularly heavily attacked planets (aka, the ones where I have to continually rebuild harvesters...) might get a second one, or have a couple of non-teleporting ones on auto-repair as well.

Then I usually try to drag 3 or 4 along with me whenever I'm going to drag a colony ship into a new world, to help it build up quicker, and repair ships a bit quicker as well. After which I build a teleporting one which helps build stuff and/or repair my ships as I reinforce the world (which remains there as it's "defense" repairer as mentioned above), then I plot on hitting the next world. :)

Essentially I setup most of my planets to be as self-sustaining as possible. Each wormhole to an AI world is fairly heavily turreted, also I usually leave a dozen assorted ships at each one as well so it has a nice variety of things should the AI throw something particularly offbeat at me. (I tend to play with the Schizophrenic AI modifier on; there's little more panic inducing then seeing a pair of attack starships wander through the wormhole along with a bunch of chaff, when 99.99% of your forces are on the other side of the map...)

As to the cloaking, maybe have them de-cloak whilst repairing? Only reason I'd want it is because by about half way through the game the AI seems to decide that the Engineers are the most threatening ship in the galaxy and so tends to take them out first. :) Not that it'd help them much, but it would help defend them against sneak attacks by space planes.  >:(

Isn't using engineers to boost space docks only useful in an emergency?

To build a space dock and boost it using 3 engineers entails a total cost of 8200 Metal and 4100 Crystal. Using Mark III cruisers as an example this would allow you to pump out a cruiser every 7 seconds.

For a cost of 8000 Metal and 4000 Crystal I can build 8 space docks, with no engineers boosting the docks this allows me to build a Mark III cruiser every 3.75 seconds. Clearly this is much more efficient.

Very true -- this is why I don't have 3x engineers on all my docks.  However, the one advantage that engineers have is their mobility.  so, for example, I tend to build 6x engineers on my home planet for assisting space docks, and then shift them between planets as I decide to put up more forward space docks.  Over time, that's a pretty large savings as long as the engineers don't get killed.  With this strategy I do never wind up needing anywhere near even all the Mark I engineers, let alone any more -- but, I like I said above, to each his/her own.

That's pretty much the same reason for me. I tend to build all the big-ticket items on my home planet so at the start of the game having lots of spare engineers I can yank off a space dock to accelerate building something is convenient. Plus if I only have 3-4 docks (which eventually ends up being one dock per tech level, plus one dock that's usually populated with whatever happens to be the most-killed for that game, usually bombers or if the special ship has a ton of them in it's cap, that in addition to the normal tech queues), it means it's easy to shut off production of the less important items, then restart it quickly again.

Usually since I try to start on worlds with large numbers of wormholes (I usually try for 6 or more), most of the engineers I use were originally built to repair the defenses on the start world, or the first couple of worlds I take, wormholes (one engineer per wormhole, since they don't travel all that fast, teleport engineers I just have one per world). So the cost has already been paid for another use, so the accelleration of mostly free. :)

I have no where near the resource gather rate to sustain this level of production, let alone what it would be if I were utilising more docks, so engineer assistance would be futile. It would only be worth doing if I needed ships rapidly in order to defend a system and did not have time to build another dock.

Given that it is possible to have a whopping 30 space docks this is hardly restrictive, and the engineers are much more useful on repair duty. Still, I rarely manage to use up all my engineers in a game.

Yup, same here.  The resources are limiting for me, also, way before I hit the engineer cap.  I've been sort of thinking of the mobile repair station as basically the honorary Mark III engineer.  It will be more useful once some of the current glitches are out of it, and once it has the space tugs to pull allied ships back to it for repairs.

I tend to play with both myself and the AIs at +50% resources, and even then it tends to be only near the end of the game when I have enough resources to run all the production facilities full tilt. Most of the use/abuse of engineers is so I can be lazy and minimize my interaction with the boring parts (economy, and slapping down annoying things killing my harvesters, and economy, and repairing defenses and rebuilding harvesters and occasional command centers, and well, economy :) ), so I can have fun with, well, pretty much everything that isn't an economics simulator. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 04:08:14 pm »
Hrm... last game had three or four active docks, plus Tech IV Factory, plus Starship factory, plus missile silo, each of which had 3 engineers on each, so that's 21 non-teleporting ones. For each planet with a wormhole that opens to a AI planet (that is, almost all of them) I have one teleport one on auto-repair, particularly heavily attacked planets (aka, the ones where I have to continually rebuild harvesters...) might get a second one, or have a couple of non-teleporting ones on auto-repair as well.

Then I usually try to drag 3 or 4 along with me whenever I'm going to drag a colony ship into a new world, to help it build up quicker, and repair ships a bit quicker as well. After which I build a teleporting one which helps build stuff and/or repair my ships as I reinforce the world (which remains there as it's "defense" repairer as mentioned above), then I plot on hitting the next world. :)

All sounds valid to me -- as Revenantus points out, it's not the most effective way to spend resources if you just look at the numbers, but there's certainly a lot to be said for high degrees of automation, too.

Essentially I setup most of my planets to be as self-sustaining as possible. Each wormhole to an AI world is fairly heavily turreted, also I usually leave a dozen assorted ships at each one as well so it has a nice variety of things should the AI throw something particularly offbeat at me. (I tend to play with the Schizophrenic AI modifier on; there's little more panic inducing then seeing a pair of attack starships wander through the wormhole along with a bunch of chaff, when 99.99% of your forces are on the other side of the map...)

Just in case you didn't know -- the AI sends starships with the non-schizophrenic waves, too. They don't show up as part of the incoming waves text, but they pop out on occasion. :)

As to the cloaking, maybe have them de-cloak whilst repairing? Only reason I'd want it is because by about half way through the game the AI seems to decide that the Engineers are the most threatening ship in the galaxy and so tends to take them out first. :) Not that it'd help them much, but it would help defend them against sneak attacks by space planes.  >:(

I see.  Well, hopefully just giving them more health might combat that some...

Usually since I try to start on worlds with large numbers of wormholes (I usually try for 6 or more)

That's very cool.  A dangerous strategy, right at the start, but it probably pays off very well over time.  Makes you spend a lot more time up front on your home planet, I imagine, but then your expansion (assuming you survive) is going to be a lot easier.  That's cool that someone prefers this style, since most people seem to go for as few open wormholes as possible!

Most of the use/abuse of engineers is so I can be lazy and minimize my interaction with the boring parts (economy, and slapping down annoying things killing my harvesters, and economy, and repairing defenses and rebuilding harvesters and occasional command centers, and well, economy :) ), so I can have fun with, well, pretty much everything that isn't an economics simulator. :)

I can see the appeal of minimizing the parts that are less to your tastes at some economic cost.  Another good example of why the numbers aren't always 100% the only thing to consider, I guess;  I hadn't really thought of it from this angle before, but I'm glad you got me to.  Still not the way I personally am likely to play, but it's great to have insights into what other players value.
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Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 04:55:08 pm »
Essentially I setup most of my planets to be as self-sustaining as possible. Each wormhole to an AI world is fairly heavily turreted, also I usually leave a dozen assorted ships at each one as well so it has a nice variety of things should the AI throw something particularly offbeat at me. (I tend to play with the Schizophrenic AI modifier on; there's little more panic inducing then seeing a pair of attack starships wander through the wormhole along with a bunch of chaff, when 99.99% of your forces are on the other side of the map...)

Just in case you didn't know -- the AI sends starships with the non-schizophrenic waves, too. They don't show up as part of the incoming waves text, but they pop out on occasion. :)

Ah, good to know. I haven't really played with anything but schizophrenic on the higher AI levels so I really don't know what the "normal" waves look like. :)

Usually since I try to start on worlds with large numbers of wormholes (I usually try for 6 or more)

That's very cool.  A dangerous strategy, right at the start, but it probably pays off very well over time.  Makes you spend a lot more time up front on your home planet, I imagine, but then your expansion (assuming you survive) is going to be a lot easier.  That's cool that someone prefers this style, since most people seem to go for as few open wormholes as possible!

Usually the main cost is time. The cost of setting up turrets (and repairers to keep things alive between enemies wandering through), and avoiding placing harvesters until you've actually got at least one tractor beam per wormhole up (AI will beeline for the harvesters if they exist, otherwise they'll head for your space dock/command center, which of course is where you've got your smallish collection of ships...), means you don't really have much cash to spend on ships, and your economy is quite slow to start off. I think it normally takes about 25-30 game minutes before secured my home world and I've got enough forces to start the assault on a gate-only world (not forcefields, etc) rather then under 10 minutes it can take me for a two or three wormhole world.

This is also probably why I didn't have so much of an issue with that "harder" AI who's main threat is a permanent wormhole into the middle of your home world too. Since I have so many exits, I tend to have a bit more a central point on the map, so I tend to have my main production facilities at my home world for probably close to 80% of the game so I always have a large chunk of offense ready to be redirected to the wormhole defense.  I just have them producing in a nice trail down half a dozen planets to which every front I'm currently attacking. It's rare I'm ever attacking with a full unit cap of any ship so I tend to have replacements for the ships I lose already already in the conga line, so as things die my backup is arriving and the new ships are just coming off the assembly line. :)

I do get the feeling between the bonus +50% resources for myself and the AI, and my somewhat more defensive/automated/idiosyncratic play style, I'm playing a very different game then everyone else. :)

Most of the use/abuse of engineers is so I can be lazy and minimize my interaction with the boring parts (economy, and slapping down annoying things killing my harvesters, and economy, and repairing defenses and rebuilding harvesters and occasional command centers, and well, economy :) ), so I can have fun with, well, pretty much everything that isn't an economics simulator. :)

I can see the appeal of minimizing the parts that are less to your tastes at some economic cost.  Another good example of why the numbers aren't always 100% the only thing to consider, I guess;  I hadn't really thought of it from this angle before, but I'm glad you got me to.  Still not the way I personally am likely to play, but it's great to have insights into what other players value.

It has it's benefits too. Setting up simpler and more automatic systems to "get me ships" and "stop ships hurting my things getting me ships", means I tend to have a bit more ability to do risky things when assaulting a world since I don't have to worry about being distracted by an emergency or just plain maintenance so much (such as taking out the AI command center of a Tech IV world when you've only got Tech II ships then having to  handle the backlash of a few hundred ships rushing for your home world; lost waaaaaay too many ships, a hundred turrets, two worlds and about half an hour's time, but it was worth it for the Advanced Research and Advanced Factory on the world on the opposite side :) ). And generally knowing that I've got 15-20% of my force's worth of ships coming in the pipeline to back me up does mean I can take a larger risk and not have much of a setback if it doesn't pay out.


Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2009, 04:58:36 pm »
I do get the feeling between the bonus +50% resources for myself and the AI, and my somewhat more defensive/automated/idiosyncratic play style, I'm playing a very different game then everyone else. :)

Like most games of this complexity, I don't think any two players are playing exactly the same game.  It's good to carve out a personal niche!

It has it's benefits too. Setting up simpler and more automatic systems to "get me ships" and "stop ships hurting my things getting me ships", means I tend to have a bit more ability to do risky things when assaulting a world since I don't have to worry about being distracted by an emergency or just plain maintenance so much (such as taking out the AI command center of a Tech IV world when you've only got Tech II ships then having to  handle the backlash of a few hundred ships rushing for your home world; lost waaaaaay too many ships, a hundred turrets, two worlds and about half an hour's time, but it was worth it for the Advanced Research and Advanced Factory on the world on the opposite side :) ). And generally knowing that I've got 15-20% of my force's worth of ships coming in the pipeline to back me up does mean I can take a larger risk and not have much of a setback if it doesn't pay out.

Very cool!
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2009, 05:22:52 pm »
My argument against your engineering shuffling strategy is as follows;

First, let's assume that I have invested in 3 engineers and I am accelerating ship construction at a dock in system A. I now want to move production forward a single system to system B. I therefore construct a space dock in system B and start flying my engineers there. My engineers reach the system and start accelerating the second dock. The problem is my engineers have been doing nothing useful in the time they have been flying to system B. If I had decided to continue producing ships using my engineers in system A and then flying the ships to system B, there would now be more ships in system B. No matter how long I continue to produce ships in system B the total number produced will always lag behind what I could of had by continuing production in system A. The point here is that engineer travel time is detrimental to production. Suggesting that the engineers could just stay in the one place is again a net loss as using the raw resources to directly construct more space docks would have been more efficient in that case.

Consider the alternative strategy of placing a space dock in every system you control (or even just building all of them in your home system, although this slightly dubious, as I will come to in a moment), it follows from the above argument that constantly constructing ships at each dock and ordering them to your front line will result in more ships than could be obtained by shuffling engineers forward. Having a space dock in each system is also useful for defensive purposes should a scenario requiring emergency reinforcements arise. Even if I hit peak production capacity using this method I will still have achieved it more efficiently than if I'd used engineers for assistance - a net gain.

The argument against this building strategy is the reduced level of reactivity, in that it is harder to quickly change your ship mix, as the resulting changes from editing dock production schemes will not come into effect immediately as a number of your ships are having to travel to reach you. Your reactivity is reduced more significantly the further your docks are from your front line, which is often a long way from your home world, hence massing all production there is questionable. Fortunately the effects of this reduced reactivity can be greatly mitigated by good planning.

Now, I will almost always have an engineer on a planet that is adjacent to a hostile world for maintenance purposes, and if he is not doing anything else then he can assist the docks - this is useful but does not affect the points above. Constructing lots of engineers early and dropping them off one by one on planets ties up a large number of resources early that could have been used for military ships, and the huge amount of resulting engineer travel time is very damaging. Also I often have engineers with the fleet to repair ships, these can also be used to accelerate docks when not doing anything else but again don't affect the points above because any engineer that were to leave the fleet to become a production assistant would require replacing, which would cost more than a space dock etc...

By the time I reach the end-game the cost of constructing a few extra space docks near the AI home world to boost the fleet is negligible next to the cost of all those unused engineer hours caused by shuffling them forwards.


Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2009, 05:29:58 pm »
By the time I reach the end-game the cost of constructing a few extra space docks near the AI home world to boost the fleet is negligible next to the cost of all those unused engineer hours caused by shuffling them forwards.

Goodness, that was a detailed and well constructed argument.  A lot of valid points there.  I suppose my only thing is that I tend to only shuffle the engineers three or four times in a twelve-hour game.  When I need a short-term, immediate-use outpost in a faroff place, then I don't try to shuffle them, and I tend to build around 5 space docks and just start cranking.  So I guess I'm partly using your strategy already, though I hadn't really thought about it.  I agree wholeheartedly that sending engineers on frequent, long journeys is not going to be a good idea!
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.009A (Selection Rectangle Counts & Team Income Display)
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2009, 05:34:23 pm »
New version, addressing many issues raised in this thread:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,172.msg1198.html#msg1198
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