Author Topic: Prerelease 1.008G (Scouting, Cloaking, and Home/Core Planet Guarding).  (Read 4447 times)

Offline x4000

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Here's the latest prerelease:  http://www.arcengames.com/share/AIWar1008G.zip

That version is an upgrade from version 1.007, so you have to already have 1.007 (or greater) installed. Just unzip it into your game folder (usually C:\Program Files\Arcen Games\AI War\ unless you specified something else). Please make sure that your unzip process keeps the folder structure from the zip file, rather than just unpacking all of the files into the base target directory.

What's new since 1.008F:
(Cumulative release notes since 1.007 are attached at the bottom)

-------------------

-The AI will no longer use Scout Starships against the players.

-Scouts have been rebalanced in response to the AIs now protecting wormholes better.  Mark I and Mark II now have cloaking (so that all scouts now have cloaking), and they also thus no longer have any shields (no cloaking ships have shields).  The health of the armored scout has thus been quadrupled, and the health of the Mark III scout has been doubled.  Mark I and II scouts also no longer have any weapons (Mark III and IV already did not), so they will never accidentally decloak themselves in order to attack an enemy ship.

-The AI will now intentionally route its special forces ships to any core or home planets that are under attack.

-Ships guarding "core" AI planets will now come to the aid of a core AI command station that is under attack, attempting to prevent the AI player from going out of the game.  If they succeed in killing the ships on the AI home planet, they will then turn on the human players, so this can be extremely dangerous and even game-ending if not handled carefully.  This behavior is so potentially deadly that it will only be used by AIs of difficulty 7 or higher.

-If the AI players have different tech levels, they will now both be shown in the AI Progress section, rather than just showing one of them.

-Since the new style of AI Progress was introduced, the AI players were getting new ship types at much too fast a rate.  Fixed.

-Items in the build queue that are delayed for being finished will no longer show negative time estimates.

-Cloaked ships (controlled by players or the AI) will no longer auto-attack targets unless they are in attack-move mode or free-roaming defender mode.  Instead they will only attack the targets that they are issued by the player.  This helps to preserve their cloaked state, and gives them a combat edge in many situations (such as raids into enemy territory).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 09:56:09 pm by x4000 »
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Offline Quitch

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I wonder if this is going to make scouting too easy. We'll see :)

EDIT: It doesn't, it's much, MUCH harder.

EDIT2: While being built in knowledge sapped territory a science lab shows 2000 but once built switches to exhausted.

EDIT3: If you order an engineer into free-roam on clicking on top of another ship it fails to change to free-roam.

EDIT4: An engineer issued a standard multi-planet move will stop to reclaim mines. Bad engineer!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 06:05:47 pm by Quitch »

Offline x4000

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I wonder if this is going to make scouting too easy. We'll see :)

EDIT: It doesn't, it's much, MUCH harder.

Yep, I know.  It may need more tweaking, we'll see, but basically I want the players to only be able to get around a planet or two away from their planets with a Mark I scout, around 2-3 planets with Mark II, maybe 4-5 planets with Mark III, and anywhere with Mark IV.  That makes positioning important for scouting, as well, and keeps the players blind to most of the map until later in the game.  And also, a lot of the values above will probably vary by +/-3 depending on the specific map, AI types, etc.  Some of it boils down to luck of where stuff is built.

EDIT2: While being built in knowledge sapped territory a science lab shows 2000 but once built switches to exhausted.

EDIT3: If you order an engineer into free-roam on clicking on top of another ship it fails to change to free-roam.

EDIT4: An engineer issued a standard multi-planet move will stop to reclaim mines. Bad engineer!

I'll fix these for the next release, thanks for letting me know. See, that #4 issue is another instance related to all of that movement bug fix.  This one is an easy fix, but it used to work before I recoded all those subsystems.  The "reclaim mines" subsystem is one that I completely had overlooked, it's such a small edge case.  Anyway, it's working quite well overall, but these sort of tiny/easy issues might still crop up from time to time for the next little while.  Just let me know if you find them, and I'll take care of them!
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Offline Revenantus

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Early scouting is now much harder and more involved - manually steering scouts around tachyon beam emitters was key to extending their penetration range in a few cases as being visible whilst attempting to pass through a wormhole is very damaging.

Astro-trains are now a more interesting threat as crossing paths with them can often spell doom for the scouts involved, again manually making sure to avoid them is important, especially when complex ship types are enabled and they are instantly set upon by teleporting ships. Giving all scouts cloaking has made early scouting more balanced in simple vs complex game types.

My tech I scouts were consistently able to travel 2-3 hops away from my starting system. Grouping them together was also much less effective in increasing their penetration range - situations lethal to a single scout usually destroyed all of them. This is because there is no limit on how many tachyon beams ships can emit so all the scouts become vulnerable at once.

I think that a single ship/turret should only be able to emit a tachyon beam once every second or so, perhaps larger ships could emit more at once or have a lower recharge time - Groups of scouts would be more likely to succeed this way.

Overall, the effect is that you now need to pay more attention to what your scouts are doing - previously I often used to just point them at somewhere far away and see how far they got. I prefer this new system.

Deep raiding is now vastly more costly - this is great. Additionally, establishing beach heads is now much more interesting. Should the AI be reinforcing the wormhole I'm at even while I'm in the system? It kept building tractor beam turrets at my beach head - obviously not very effective. Maybe the AI should only reinforce on the actual wormhole if there isn't any actual combat going on in the system.

On a side note, it is still possible to place turrets after the mobile builder has been destroyed as long as you don't leave build mode.

Offline x4000

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Early scouting is now much harder and more involved - manually steering scouts around tachyon beam emitters was key to extending their penetration range in a few cases as being visible whilst attempting to pass through a wormhole is very damaging.

Hmm, I really want to get away from the manual legwork here, but at the same time only have scouts be able to penetrate so far.  I could come up with some sort of "fuel system" for scouts, where each wormhole they pass through reduces their fuel by 1, thus weakening them by that much.  And then make it so that scout 1 has 3 fuel cells (or whatever), scout 2 has 4, scout 3 has 5, and scout 4 continues to work the way it does not.  That would be very consistent and predictable, and if I then made them all immune to tachyon beams like the Mark IV scout, that would allow for very predictable, very hands-off scouting... of course, that could also be more boring, and it would vary less by map.  Hmm.

Astro-trains are now a more interesting threat as crossing paths with them can often spell doom for the scouts involved, again manually making sure to avoid them is important, especially when complex ship types are enabled and they are instantly set upon by teleporting ships. Giving all scouts cloaking has made early scouting more balanced in simple vs complex game types.

That's good to hear that it is now more balanced for you.  And yes, that's one of the main functions of the Astro Trains, but of course in the past that only affected the Mark III scouts.  Much more interesting earlier on in now, I think.  Of course, if I went with a fuel-cell approach as above, that would remove that whole function from Astro Trains except as regards non-scout cloaked ships.

My tech I scouts were consistently able to travel 2-3 hops away from my starting system. Grouping them together was also much less effective in increasing their penetration range - situations lethal to a single scout usually destroyed all of them. This is because there is no limit on how many tachyon beams ships can emit so all the scouts become vulnerable at once.

Well, that's good.  And that makes sense that the grouping is now more pointless.  Grouping huge numbers would still be good for getting past ion cannons, etc, but still, as you point out all the scouts would be revealed at once, which is bad news for them.

I think that a single ship/turret should only be able to emit a tachyon beam once every second or so, perhaps larger ships could emit more at once or have a lower recharge time - Groups of scouts would be more likely to succeed this way.

I see the tachyon beams as being more of a "field effect" rather than a beam that is really shot, despite the fact that this is how it is represented visually.  The counter-shooters (counter-missiles, counter-snipers, counter-missiles) all work this same way, where they can block infinite incoming shots in their limited range.  This is the most effective thing when dealing with incoming enemy waves, and I don't want to sacrifice that for the sake of scouts.  I'd rather come up with something else for the scouts...

Overall, the effect is that you now need to pay more attention to what your scouts are doing - previously I often used to just point them at somewhere far away and see how far they got. I prefer this new system.

That's pretty much what I would do, too.  I prefer having it be more hands-off just because I tend to be more focused on other stuff.  Maybe "fuel cell scouts" should be an additional line of ships, more expensive in knowledge, etc, than the basic scouts, that work the way I described above.  That way people who just want to spend the knowledge for the fuel cell scouts could do that, whereas the people who are okay with paying more attention could use the regular scouts.  Or maybe there is some other sort of hybrid approach that would solve both problems in one... that would be ideal.  I'll have to keep thinking about that, but if you (or anyone else reading this!) have any ideas, those are always welcome!

Deep raiding is now vastly more costly - this is great. Additionally, establishing beach heads is now much more interesting. Should the AI be reinforcing the wormhole I'm at even while I'm in the system? It kept building tractor beam turrets at my beach head - obviously not very effective. Maybe the AI should only reinforce on the actual wormhole if there isn't any actual combat going on in the system.

Awesome, glad that's a hit!  The AI is indeed supposed to keep building even when you have a beachhead there, except after you've killed their command station.  That's the trigger for that to stop.  If I make them stop building there too soon, it could unbalance the deep raids again.  I should have it check for the presence of hostile ships near each wormhole, though, and have it build more intelligent stuff than tractor beams there.  Tractor beams are useful in general at wormholes, but not if you're already sitting on top of it, which it currently isn't checking to see.  Thanks for telling me about that, I'll be sure to give that another look soon.

On a side note, it is still possible to place turrets after the mobile builder has been destroyed as long as you don't leave build mode.

Ha, I had never noticed that.  Great catch!  Added to my fix list...
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Offline x4000

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Okay, a lot of these fixes are here:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,155.new.html#new

This should finally be the last release for today. :)
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Offline Revenantus

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Quote
Hmm, I really want to get away from the manual legwork here, but at the same time only have scouts be able to penetrate so far.

I apologize, I may have made the manual work sound more significant that it was. I see it as a positive as it isn't necessary but the game does reward the player for doing so if they want to invest the time in managing the scouts.

Quote
I could come up with some sort of "fuel system" for scouts, where each wormhole they pass through reduces their fuel by 1, thus weakening them by that much.  And then make it so that scout 1 has 3 fuel cells (or whatever), scout 2 has 4, scout 3 has 5, and scout 4 continues to work the way it does not.  That would be very consistent and predictable, and if I then made them all immune to tachyon beams like the Mark IV scout, that would allow for very predictable, very hands-off scouting... of course, that could also be more boring, and it would vary less by map.  Hmm.

As you say, the issue with this is the predictability. Any system that removes the environmental hazards to scouts will probably feel dull.

What if, in addition to hull points, scouts were given 'cloak points' (I'm sure someone can come up with a more imaginative name) that are essentially the ability to compensate for tachyon fields? Every second that a scout is inside a tachyon field its cloak points are drained, upon reaching 0, the scout is revealed.

Higher level scouts would have more cloak points and should therefore on average penetrate further. Grouping wouldn't be particularly significant as each scout's cloak would be drained at the same rate. There would still be a level of unpredictability as the AI may, by chance, have lots of tachyon emitters in particular systems and therefore scout's cloaks would fail quickly.

Scouts could also potentially be given a cloak recharge rate, so hiding them in a system might allow them to travel further given enough time. This might be unbalanced as through lots of microing it could be possible to travel unreasonably far with low-tech scouts. Maybe not.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 10:59:58 pm by Revenantus »

Offline x4000

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I apologize, I may have made the manual work sound more significant that it was. I see it as a positive as it isn't necessary but the game does reward the player for doing so if they want to invest the time in managing the scouts.

Gotcha -- thanks for the clarification.  I'll leave it as-is for now, I think, and once there is more data from my own playtesting, and more people weighing in, I might make another shift.  Since it seems at least fairly balanced right now, I don't want to imbalance that in the opposite direction by making too many shifts at once. :)

As you say, the issue with this is the predictability. Any system that removes the environmental hazards to scouts will probably feel dull.

Yeah, I think you're right.

What if, in addition to hull points, scouts were given 'cloak points' (I'm sure someone can come up with a more imaginative name) that are essentially the ability to compensate for tachyon fields? Every second that a scout is inside a tachyon field its cloak points are drained, upon reaching 0, the scout is revealed.

Could be, but scouts move very fast, so odds are that it would almost never pass this threshold (or it always would, conversely, depending on how it was balanced).  Since scouts move at a constant rate, it would be very hard to come up with a solution that would cause them to sometimes get decloaked, but not always, that's based on time spent in the field or something like that.  I could base it on the number of fields, maybe, but then that also could be really unbalancing in favor of the scouts.  Both of those situations could easily lead to scouts being almost invincible and being able to scout with impunity.

Higher level scouts would have more cloak points and should therefore on average penetrate further. Grouping wouldn't be particularly significant as each scout's cloak would be drained at the same rate. There would still be a level of unpredictability as the AI may, by chance, have lots of tachyon emitters in particular systems and therefore scout's cloaks would fail quickly.

Yeah, since it doesn't really help grouping, I'm not quite sure what problem this is solving aside from making general scouting more effective -- which isn't a goal I really have, incidentally.  If there's going to be a pro-scout change, I think I'd like it to be along the lines of something that makes grouping more effective.  Maybe some sort of daisy-chain ability with scouts that makes it so that only one of them can get decloaked at once, that the others protect the first one.  Actually, that idea isn't half bad, I think I'll look at doing something like that. :)

Thanks for your suggestions!  This is an interesting one to explore.  I don't know that I would have thought of the daisy-chaining thing, at least not anytime soon, without some of your comments there.
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Offline darke

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Random input: I just started a new map on the 008H and my scouts are having a *much* easier time now. They basically fly until they find a world with an ion cannon on it, then they fry.

This is on my usual Easy AI7/60 planet/bonus-resources-for-all map. I might have just got lucky though. :)

Edit: Also this is with zero micromanagement. I tell them to go somewhere, and they do. :)

Also in an unrelated note it might be worth forcing the map generate to ensure that if there's no worlds adjacent to your start world without a force field and/or special forces bases, it should remove all of them from the "cheapest" world. That way you actually have an interesting decisions (do I turtle and wait for a large force of bombers or cruisers or both, or just go for a less useful resource world just to get some resources at the start?), rather then having to sit here for half a game hour just grinding out the troops. :)

Only thought of it because this particular world I started on has... four exits all identically equipped with one special forces and one heavy defense. :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 12:56:50 am by darke »

Offline x4000

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Random input: I just started a new map on the 008H and my scouts are having a *much* easier time now. They basically fly until they find a world with an ion cannon on it, then they fry.

This is on my usual Easy AI7/60 planet/bonus-resources-for-all map. I might have just got lucky though. :)

Could be luck, or it could also be that the AI hasn't had a chance to build many tachyon beam emitters yet and/or otherwise reinforce their wormholes, or it could just be a lucky map.  But thanks for the input -- I'm glad to have it, I need a lot of aggregate data before I can really make a final ruling on the effectiveness of this overall.
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Offline darke

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Could be luck, or it could also be that the AI hasn't had a chance to build many tachyon beam emitters yet and/or otherwise reinforce their wormholes, or it could just be a lucky map.  But thanks for the input -- I'm glad to have it, I need a lot of aggregate data before I can really make a final ruling on the effectiveness of this overall.

Seems to have been that they hadn't built/reinforced enough yet. 20 minutes game time in and the scouts all simuntaneously self destruct a couple of planets in. :)

Also you probably missed it since I was a bit slow on the edit:

Edit: Also this is with zero micromanagement. I tell them to go somewhere, and they do. :)

Also in an unrelated note it might be worth forcing the map generate to ensure that if there's no worlds adjacent to your start world without a force field and/or special forces bases, it should remove all of them from the "cheapest" world. That way you actually have an interesting decisions (do I turtle and wait for a large force of bombers or cruisers or both, or just go for a less useful resource world just to get some resources at the start?), rather then having to sit here for half a game hour just grinding out the troops. :)

Only thought of it because this particular world I started on has... four exits all identically equipped with one special forces and one heavy defense. :)


Offline x4000

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Seems to have been that they hadn't built/reinforced enough yet. 20 minutes game time in and the scouts all simuntaneously self destruct a couple of planets in. :)

Ah, good to know -- yeah, hopefully the daisychaining will help in that situation, then.

Also you probably missed it since I was a bit slow on the edit:

Edit: Also this is with zero micromanagement. I tell them to go somewhere, and they do. :)

Also in an unrelated note it might be worth forcing the map generate to ensure that if there's no worlds adjacent to your start world without a force field and/or special forces bases, it should remove all of them from the "cheapest" world. That way you actually have an interesting decisions (do I turtle and wait for a large force of bombers or cruisers or both, or just go for a less useful resource world just to get some resources at the start?), rather then having to sit here for half a game hour just grinding out the troops. :)

Only thought of it because this particular world I started on has... four exits all identically equipped with one special forces and one heavy defense. :)

Oops, yes, I had missed this.  For the situation that you describe, the solution there is to hop the harder planets and go to the next, usually.  That doesn't happen all that often, but I think that the variance in maps (from wicked to fairly easy) is one of the strengths of this game compared to a lot of other RTSes that just have "generic fair" maps with slight variations.  Sounds like you found a particularly wicked map.  That's one of the early recon decisions, really -- do you keep playing a hard position (I always do), or do you decide to go with something more favorable.

That's one of the pitfalls of letting it be completely random with where it puts the really strong planets, they are sometimes clustered like this -- but I think that's a pretty interesting scenario that you wouldn't find in any other game, by the same token.  Being surrounded from the start can also make the game easier once you do break past them, too, so as long as you don't die in the early game it will probably balance out in the first place... :)
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Offline darke

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That's one of the pitfalls of letting it be completely random with where it puts the really strong planets, they are sometimes clustered like this -- but I think that's a pretty interesting scenario that you wouldn't find in any other game, by the same token.  Being surrounded from the start can also make the game easier once you do break past them, too, so as long as you don't die in the early game it will probably balance out in the first place... :)

Heh. I don't tend to have problems with "dying", I just tend to encamp, hit x10 speed, wait a bit, and then get back to slaughtering. :) It just feels like I'm abusing the game mechanics more then I should be. :)

Offline x4000

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Well, that's your prerogative, I suppose.  :) While you're doing that, the AI is also busily reinforcing, etc.  It's not like the AI is idle while you are fast-forwarding, so I think it all balances out in the end there.
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Offline darke

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Yup. :) Must say I do like the extra reinforcing around the wormholes, means I end up loosing quite a few more ships early on. Though that could be just because I'm fighting against an AI with those extra-damage ships. Those are seriously painful. Do the bonuses multiple the more ships they have in range, or is the multiple ships in their clumps more just for backup so you just can't take down one ship and suddenly everything's easier. :)