Author Topic: Power plants and resource drain (1.014V)  (Read 5224 times)

Offline liq3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Power plants and resource drain (1.014V)
« on: August 24, 2009, 02:55:14 am »
Ok, I did some math, now that powerplants drain resources. Should give some insight.

The following values are energy per -1 metal and crystal per second. So, 4000 means you're getting 4000 power for -1m/ps and -1c/ps. The higher they are, the better. Also, the lowest value for each Mark is just repeated for any new power plants.

# Mark IMark IIMark III
1250026662000
220001600400
31500533200
41000266" "
5500" "" "
6250" "" "

This basically means you the perfect build for plants on a planet is 2,1,3/1,3/1,2,1,1,2,1,3 and then just spam 2s if you need any extra. Ideally you'd never do that and just build 3 I, 2 IIs and a III. This gives you 156,000 power for -61r/s (2557 ratio).

This also raises the point that Mark IIIs are no longer the most inefficient resource wise, but Mark Is are. The initial resource cost quickly becomes secondary. No longer true as amounts were revised.

Edit: Values have been revised for 1.014U.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 06:26:42 am by liq3 »

Offline Haagenti

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 03:34:38 am »
This would be an excellent addition to the wiki.....
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Offline darke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 534
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 06:55:41 am »
That's a massive drop off for 2x III generators, are we sure His Infallible X-ness hasn't just made a typo again? :)

Offline Echo35

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,703
  • More turrets! MORE TURRETS!
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 09:49:06 am »
That's a massive drop off for 2x III generators, are we sure His Infallible X-ness hasn't just made a typo again? :)

I was just noticing that. If that's correct... Mark II's are screwey :P

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 09:50:54 am »
The dropoff isn't accidental, it's a 40% reduction per in that level -- if you look at Mark III, it's even worse.  This is something that is not new in this release, it's been there for several full releases.

However, I think that, looking at this, I want to tweak this a bit more.  Should have run these numbers last night, but instead I eyeballed it as sort of a first stab at this.  I'm changing the Mark Is to just cost -2 of each, so that's 2500 per for the first one.  And then I'm changing Mark IIIs to be -40 each, so that's now 2000 for the first one.  Lastly, I'm changing Mark IIs to be -15 each, so that's now 2666 for the first one.

In general, that will bring the III back down to being the least efficient, it will reduce the too-high efficiency of the II, and it will increase the too-low efficiency of the I, which is something that people are supposed to be able to spam a bit if they are in a really bad situation.

Thanks for this analysis, that's really cool!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fiskbit

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,752
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 09:51:53 am »
I think it's fine, myself. Mark III is really meant to be a safety net in the event that you really don't have enough energy, and Mark I (in my experience) is for cases where you need energy NOW because it builds so quickly.

Er..or what Chris said. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.  Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Admiral

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 05:20:51 pm »
I'm still not sold on the "energy reactors use metal & crystal resources."

Can someone please explain to me again what balance problem this addresses and why this is a good solution (or the best possible solution)?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 05:24:36 pm »
Problem:  The best strategy by far is to just turtle on a few planets, because a) you can get everything you need there, and b) it keeps the AI progress from going up.  This not only is boring, it makes the AI way too easy when that strategy is used.

General solution:  Players need to have more incentive to expand.

Specifically:  As more ships are produced (thus requiring more energy), players need more planets in order to house their reactors.  However, with Mark III reactors and the boosts in the economy in general, having one-time up-front costs for reactors is fairly trivial.  Instead, an ongoing cost in other resources for energy thus blunts the increasingly-large amount of resources players are otherwise amassing, thus making them have to take new territory in order to expand their energy.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Admiral

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 05:27:42 pm »
Succinct, X.

Why not just remove the Mk III again? I know I love the Mk III because I'm a natural turtler, but I was much more aggressive without it. All in all, I think that might have been easier. Or, put a build cap on the Mk III?

Also, how about the decreasing resource harvesting over time idea that was bandied about elsewhere?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 05:32:12 pm »
Succinct, X.

I try. :)

Why not just remove the Mk III again? I know I love the Mk III because I'm a natural turtler, but I was much more aggressive without it. All in all, I think that might have been easier. Or, put a build cap on the Mk III?

Even just one Mk III can be devastating.  And even before there was Mk III, Haag was still able to exploit this tendency far too easily.

Also, how about the decreasing resource harvesting over time idea that was bandied about elsewhere?

The decreasing harvesting over time is a lot harder to quantify, in many respects, and it is on a fixed time interval rather than reacting to the speed at which the players do stuff.  If you build slowly, you can get away with just one planet but you will have less.  If you expand more rapidly in terms of ships, then you need more planets to support them with this model.  And you never have a point where your economy is tanking for some mysterious reason, and then you look and see that the efficiency of some of your reactors has lowered for some reason.  I strongly dislike the opaqueness of a system like that, and I'm also looking for a way to tie the need for expansion to the player's aggressiveness in building ships, rather than to an arbitrary timetable.  Those are my goals, anyway.  I prefer having the player set the pace where possible.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline liq3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 08:03:42 pm »
Revised the OP.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 10:58:24 pm »
Oh, I see, [reactors] consume resources now.  Well there's no need to upload now, I suppose, since that answers the question of where it all went.

So we need more energy and now the reactors consume resources?  Oh man, this is so game over.  I have at least one of each on each of the planets I have and I still haven't managed to break over 0 energy since the energy requirements are so high now.  Balance needed!  Please.

Okay, this is a really tough call for balance.  I have not yet reached a decision, but input is very welcome.  Here is my train of thought:

1. On the one hand, Kal and his teammate are intentionally playing what is supposed to be a losing strategy.  They are intentionally trying to take over every planet in a 120-planet galaxy, and have been at this for 40+ game hours now.  The AI should kill them in these circumstances, otherwise a lot of the "grand strategy" is moot (one of the selling points of this game is supposed to be that you cannot just take everything indiscriminately and win).

2. On the other hand, they have managed to survive until now, and it's strange to have them die by energy starvation rather than the AI getting too big and killing them.  And I'm not actually opposed to somebody being able to take every planet in the galaxy if the difficulty is low enough and their skill/patience is high enough, it's just supposed to be really difficult (and impossible past a certain difficulty).  What difficulty they are on, I cannot remember off the top of my head.

3. Back on that first hand, the fact that Kal and his partner have survived until now is more a factor of a balance issue up until now, not a balance problem now.  They have gone outside the scope of what the general game design was supposed to really allow in normal circumstances -- they should have lost 20+ hours ago, in one manner of thinking.  If they were starting fresh with the current prerelease, they would never have been able to get themselves into the current state of affairs because energy would have been too limiting all along.

4. Back on the second hand, I really don't like breaking backwards-compatibility.  Sometimes that is inevitable as the game changes, but this one doesn't really feel "right" to me.  If it's breaking Kal's game, how many other games will it be breaking?

5. Still on that second hand, if people are able to play that sort of longform game and still do okay, and if they find it fun, then isn't that something I want to support?  Maybe they are playing on a difficulty level below what they could really handle in a "real" mode of game where they don't try to take every planet they come to, and that seems like a perfectly valid way to play to me.  I really like having people enjoying the game in different ways, tailored to what style of play they prefer.  I know I have certainly played outside the bounds of "normal" gameplay in certain games in the past -- my experiences with doing that with Empire Earth were what led to a lot of the core design elements in AI War, as a matter of fact.

6. I sympathize with the desire for players to be able to stretch the rules and play in different ways -- Admiral with his parasites, eRa with his lower difficulty levels but handicapped AIs, darke with his level 10 AIs but handicapped self, Kal and his partner with their incredibly-marathon completionist game.  None of those is precisely the core game I designed, but that's totally cool with me and I really love that people are doing all these things.  Except when it messes with the balance of the core game, which binds all of these offshoots together.

7. I am still looking to have incentives for expansion, rather than consolidation (since there is already a huge incentive for consolidation in the form of the AI Progress -- and actually the amount of exposed wormholes you have, for that matter).  The energy reactor ongoing costs is very much in support of that, and I really like it.  However, players of very long games are likely to hit a very solid wall with this new system, because the amount of metal/crystal you can bring in greatly diminishes with the number of harvesters you have, to the point where they eventually won't be able to support the reactors.  In many ways, this is like double-taxation on metal/crystal resources.

Tenative Conclusion:  I think that I need to remove both the multiplayer boosts and the too-many producer penalties for harvesters.  This will encourage expansion, and will be a nice counterpoint to the energy reactor ongoing costs, which are simpler to manage anyway.  This would also remove that artificial resource wall, which right now is putting a cap on the game Kal is playing.  I think it would let him keep playing as he likes, without wrecking the balance of the core game, while giving Haagenti even more incentive to stop turtling quite so much.

Thoughts?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline liq3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 11:19:50 pm »
What's this multiplayer boost? XD

Also yeh, I could see removing the diminishing returns a good idea, since it obviously does create a hard cap on resources and energy. I don't really understand why it was in place anyway. I've never liked diminishing returns in an RTS game, in pretty much any part of it. Although, it does work well on the power plants.

Also, @ Kal. You should check how many power drawing things you have. I checked, and stuff like parasites, docks, engis, missile silos (40,000 each!) all draw a lot of power. Check how many of those you have. Also, anti-turrets draw a lot too.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 11:24:30 pm »
What's this multiplayer boost? XD

The economic balance in solo versus multiplayer used to be really poor, so in late alpha I added a boost to the metal/crystal producers that scales up with the number of players you have in the game.  That was paired with the reduction-from-too-many-harvesters penalty, which basically capped off the resources so that solo players could not just gain infinite resources.

In past versions of the game these were very well balanced, so that you would see a very similar experience resource-wise with 1 player or 8 players.  There are also more harvest points in the multiplayer games, too.

Now I think that both of those balance factors probably need to be removed to restore the right sort of balance given the energy reactor changes.  In the end, I think the energy reactor draws are simpler to understand and accomplish a better goal (encouraging expansion) as compared to the opposing producer-multipliers that were previously used.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Power plants and resource drain (1.014T)
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 11:35:47 pm »
How many games does resource use in T and U break for generators? I give you a fair estimate, of my 15 different saves, 100%

The resource usage rates would have to be cut by 5 to even be realistic, and even then they'd be HARSH.

Now there is no way to get any kind of buffer or storage, if you are hit by a serious raid, you can't afford rebuilding unless you destroy generators.

Bottom Line - Was i against resource use of generators? Now i am, something that is VITAL to any economy of ship assault strategies and deep raid strategies destroys basic gameplay entirely.

How is a player supposed to do early game deep raids - have you looked at how much resources 1000 ships need ALONE of the energy? More than a homeworld can supply, thats how many ie = absolutely game breaking

Sorry if i am this aggravated but THIS change... well this change just makes me go like this  ???
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie