Poll

 What most needs a buff?

Anti-Armor
1 (0.7%)
Astro Train
7 (5.2%)
Champion Drone Bays (Bomber, Inteceptor, Slicer)
13 (9.7%)
Counter Dark Matter Turret
8 (6%)
Decoy Drone
3 (2.2%)
Deflector Drone
3 (2.2%)
Etherjet Tractor
4 (3%)
Flagships
2 (1.5%)
Hardened forcefields
7 (5.2%)
Infiltrator
15 (11.2%)
Raider
5 (3.7%)
SF Guard Post combat capabilities
3 (2.2%)
Special Forces Rally Guardian
3 (2.2%)
Spire Gravity Ripper
2 (1.5%)
Spire Teleporting Leeches
1 (0.7%)
Superfortress
14 (10.4%)
Tachyon Drone
6 (4.5%)
Teleport raiders
16 (11.9%)
Translocator
1 (0.7%)
Wormhole Guard Posts
4 (3%)
Zenith Power Generator
13 (9.7%)
Zenith Reprocessor
3 (2.2%)
None of these need a buff! (don't use your other votes, will count by head instead of vote)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)  (Read 13114 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2012, 09:25:11 pm »
I just thought that if the UI got better, more people would be able to experience FUN easier!
Look at it another way: the UI may the only thing keeping DF from destroying the entire species.
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Offline Niwantaw

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 11:39:17 pm »
I'm having a fair bit of fun with astro trains right now.

Otherwise known as: OH GOD WHY ARE THERE SO MANY ASTRO TRAINS? I KILLED A HUNDRED OF THE FRAKKERS AND THEY JUST KEEP COMING D:


On the plus side: radar jammer Mk2 + gravity turrets everywhere + counter DM turrets everywhere + lots of long range turrets/fortresses = fun (not for the AI)
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2012, 01:12:19 am »
In my experience, Astro Trains require no effort to counter.  Not even Counter Dark Matter.  Just ignore them.  They do nothing besides act as mobile tachyon emitters.
I don't think the problem with Astro Trains it that they are too weak, or anything like that.  I think they're just uninteresting.

Imagine some more varieties of Astro Trains:
Resource Trains - Pop them like Distribution Nodes to get resources, or lose them.
Reserve Trains - Like Zenith Nodes, but of the AI's current unlock types.  Sometimes they could be trapped, and the ships that appear are hostile.
Warp Trains - Like Warp Guardians, but on a fixed travel route.
Counter-attack Trains - When destroyed, they trigger a small Counter-Attack wave.
Calling Card Trains - Every time they enter a Wormhole, they spawn a small group of AI ships to leave behind.
High-Energy Core Trains - When destroyed, they explode in a high-power, large radius AOE that hits everything (human or AI).
Prototype Trains - Drop a foldout that allows the player to build a single building (Trader good, for example) in that system.  Doesn't come for free, just allows the player to start 1 building of that type.
Translocator Train - Fire Translocation shots.  For more fun, allow them to send ships to other systems.  For even more fun, allow them to teleport turrets, too.
Teleport Train - Doesn't move normally, just teleports.
Teleport Damper Train - Prevents teleportation or translocation while in system.
"Clear the Roads" Train - Continually fires a high-power Photon Beam Cannon directly ahead of itself on the path it's travelling.
Beachhead Train - Causes the player to die when it travels through the home system.
Beacon Trains - While in Human Space, they trigger small Exowave-like spawns that rush to the Train's current location.
Planetary Effect Trains - Armor Boost, Radar Jamming, munitions boosting, etc, for whatever system they are in.
Forcefield Trains - Has a large forcefield on it, pushing other stuff out of the way and protecting AI units.
ARS Train - Replaces a normal ARS.  When killed, it drops the ARS into whatever system, as if it had seeded there.
More varieties of Turret Trains - Different shot types, different multipliers, ranges.
Data Trains - Destroy for a small AIP reduction.
You could work them in with Hybrids - That Advanced Hybrid plot?  It needs special parts to be transported to it - by Astro Train.  Find and destroy the Train before it gets to the Advanced Hybrid to (temporarily) derail the plot.


All sorts of things to make them more fun to play with.  But right now?  As you said:  Just ignore them.
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Offline contingencyplan

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2012, 02:02:44 am »
I haven't decided what units I want to vote for, but just had an interesting experience with the Zenith Power Generator that I thought I'd share.

Retrying my 8HW "Oh my God... it's full of hybrids!" game, and getting one of my early choke points set up when the Zenith Trader comes through. Naturally, I pause and take advantage of their "layaway" plan to plop down a few super-defenses (radar jammer, armor buffs, and Black Hole Generator), even though I can't build any of them right now without kneecapping my econ.

Except I accidentally click the ZPG instead of the BHG (EIEIO...). I'm sitting on 11M energy right now, so have absolutely no need for more at this point, so while it's still paused (i.e., nothing's been built on it yet), I go ahead and scrap it --- the wave increase and AIP on death does not proactively synergize with my high-altitude vision for leveraging the assets of this planet (namely, it's a choke point).

Only problem is that the AIP still increased for the scrapping. This seems like a bit high of a cost for mis-clicking in a game. We're not playing Thermonukular War, after all. :)

Furthermore, I think that the 3.6M M/C cost of the ZPG at least partially offsets the on-death AIP cost. I can see the point when the ZPG is captured from a planet, as it introduces some strategic considerations and risk-reward to the planet it's on. However, the associated benefits are immediate upon planet capture --- the Player does not have to pay any building costs for the ZPG in this case.

Items from the trader (in particular the ZPG) do not generally adhere to the same capture-based dynamic: the Player can choose where to build these structures, and the Player has to dearly pay to build them from scratch. For example, a simple strategy is to buy the ZPG on an internal planet, thereby negating the wave and AIP costs. And it is worth mentioning that the Player cannot buy these at will due to the travelling nature of the Z-Trader.

For the Z-Trader ZPG specifically, I would suggest removing the AIP and wave costs --- if not entirely, then at least only enforcing it after it has completed construction. As noted, the only point to the current mechanic is to punish the player for mis-clicking, as it is a trivial step to choose to only build these on internal planets where the AIP and wave costs are negated.

It is also worth noting that the ZPG is the only Z-Trader building that gives the Player a global bonus, rather than a local one. I would thus further suggest that the AI receive a (SMALL!) global bonus for these structures as well. Currently, the only decision is whether to take the planet or not; having it provide a bonus to the AI's forces (e.g., spec forces cap, reinforcement cap, etc.) would make the decision a bit more interesting, as the Player must then decide whether to take the planet, kill the ZPG (and take the AIP hit), or leave it (and take the AI bonus). The AI already has a few buildings like this, such as the Interplanetary Munitions Booster (I think that's the right name?), so having one such as this (especially with the special forces changes recently) would fit right in.

Finally, a more general observation along the same lines as above. Aside from the ZPG, all of the Z-trader items are local to the planet in terms of their bonuses. For example, if the Player is facing a Shield Ninny, they will likely be capturing several Armor Boosters during the game. However, it is fairly likely that the desired choke point will not be one such planet. This means that even if the Z-Trader comes through the choke point planet, the Player would be unable to provide this bonus to this vital planet unless he forfeited the bonuses he won from taking planets belonging to the Shield Ninny. I would suggest divorcing the capturable caps from the caps for the Z-Trader, so that the Player retains the choice of whether to "invest" (read: kneecap econ) in such a building on a particular planet and which planet should receive the benefit of that investment.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2012, 08:47:30 am »
You need to mantis that IMMEDIATELY!
There is already a mantis idea of collected Astro Train thoughts here.  And there is a combined Astro Train + Advanced Hybrid idea in the first comment here.

Offline relmz32

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2012, 11:17:01 am »
...
Imagine some more varieties of Astro Trains:
...
Additionally:

EMP Train: EMP Guardian's effect on entering the system. <3



AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!



;_;

I'm glad someone appreciated it. :) It was inspired in part by the fun brought about by multiple unnoticed EMP Guardians getting aggravated by me sniping a Raid Engine and showing up on my HW with 50 of their best friends.

Hey, if the AI really was serious about winning, this is how it would go about things.

my EMP Train would be about as dangerous as A Nuke Eye, if that Nuke Eye could quickly make its way to the Human HW at the beginning of the game.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2012, 11:21:53 am »
My issue with the champion ship bays is that because they spawn with FRD, with no way to turn that off, they have a tendency to fly off wantonly and "wake up" other parts of the planet I was deliberatly trying to take on piecewise.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2012, 02:51:09 pm »
Maybe a paralyzer train but offensive planetary effects on ATs are a bad idea. Same goes for e.g. attrition. ATs that can be shot for benefits aren't too great of an idea either since they will sooner or later cross player territory so AIP decreases or similar would be far too easy.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 03:15:35 pm »
Maybe a paralyzer train but offensive planetary effects on ATs are a bad idea. Same goes for e.g. attrition. ATs that can be shot for benefits aren't too great of an idea either since they will sooner or later cross player territory so AIP decreases or similar would be far too easy.
Why do you think offensive effects are bad?  Some care needs to be taken to prevent a Train wiping out the Home Command Station 3 minutes into the game, but why would something like an attrition effect be bad?

IMO, the problem with the currently existing Speed Booster and Regen trains is that they only do anything on a planet where you are currently fighting the AI.  This is usually never.  At best, it's very rare.
So, Trains that have other effects are desirable.  Effects that don't involve a currently ongoing combat are much more rare, so to get some variety you need to stretch.  Hence, the bonus/trap malus trains, etc.  Some things, like the Armor Supressor, may not affect anything not in combat, but can be quite scary anyway: "OMG, all my shields are down on the homeworld!  I hope that threatball doesn't decide to visit..."
As for letting the bonus trains through human territory - A) Anything that could be a bonus train should have the potential to be a trap train as well, B) You also have to put up with all the other Trains coming through, and C) Trains should not be easy to kill, so you'd need to put some effort into it, making it non-trivial to gain the bonus.


You need to mantis that IMMEDIATELY!
There is already a mantis idea of collected Astro Train thoughts here.  And there is a combined Astro Train + Advanced Hybrid idea in the first comment here.
I'm glad someone had a entry in there already, and thanks for linking it.  However, when I do a search for 'train', that entry does not appear.  I don't know why, but I simply don't see it when I go looking.  I can only get there going directly.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2012, 04:03:25 pm »
That mantis is about changing the AT role into more of a strategic supply vessel instead of the trams-with-guns they are now.

If you want direct nastiness:

- Tractor Beam Train
- Special Forces Attractor Train
- Raid Engine Train
- Gustav Train (hey, Wikipedia even suggests a hull type and preferred target!)
- Neinzul Cluster Train
- Stealth Train (it's just cloaked, not cloak-boosting but of course retains the tachyon ability for nasty surprises)
- Minelayer Train
- Tackle Drone Launcher/Blade Spawner/whatever drone Train

Also:
- Zenith Trader Train (only sells to the AI)
- Drill Sergeant Train (alerts the planet it's on)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2012, 05:27:49 pm »
Locking this one down; it was pretty close but gotta call it some time to move on (45 voters is a big turnout around here).  Winners are Teleport Raider, Infiltrator (and there was much rejoicing!), and Superfortress.

Thanks for the feedback :)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2012, 05:44:33 pm »
I hope the rest stays in consideration, after all there were zero "no buffs needed" votes signaling that there's still need for plenty more, especially with the 4th place being only one vote less than 3rd (and a tie to boot!).

More trains :P :

- Catsplosion Train (replicates every hour), also available as Thermomewclear Catsplosion Train
- Cookie Jar Train
- Bandwagon Train (recruits other ships into an exo-like fleet)
- Resource Hog Train (prevents all resource and energy production on the current planet)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2012, 05:50:09 pm »
I hope the rest stays in consideration, after all there were zero "no buffs needed" votes signaling that there's still need for plenty more, especially with the 4th place being only one vote less than 3rd (and a tie to boot!).
Right, I'll consider going further just so the same things don't just pop up at the top of the next poll too (no guarantee that would happen, though, depending on what people voting for the top 3 here would have voted on if those options weren't there and others were, etc), but as I said in the OP:
Quote
I'll try to do something with the top 3 results (excluding anything which fails to do better than the "None of the above" option), but probably not more than that because "processing" the results tends to significantly bog down if there's a ton of winners.
:)

In other words, I'd rather do a poll a week with 3 winners each than 1 poll every other week with 6, in that I think it more quickly addresses the roughest spots.
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 07:54:53 pm »
-trains-

Tractor Train sounds nice. Also, the Minelayer gives a reason to use those Cleanup Drone things. Do those even have a use currently?


I support the idea of allowing Trains to supply hybrids with special modules.

Perhaps allow them to equip the Hybrids with the recolonization module or other horrible things. Maybe a Penetrator Module, a regenerator module or a Martyr Module. Give the high-leve Hybrids some really scary stuff, make them into miniature golems/spirecraft.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VIII)
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2012, 08:15:40 pm »
Surprised that the Superfortress made a last minute comeback.

Anyways, as I stated in my nomination post, the superfortress is not underpowered in the same sense as that the 1st and 2nd place "winners"; superfortresses can really lay on the pain and can soak up lots of damage. However, they are relatively weak by Mk. V cap standards, especially of you take into account what the progression of power up the marks of the regular fortresses would imply.


I wonder if this would be a good time to go ahead and do the fortress refactoring to make them less of a "grind" to counter. (relevant mantis link to come later, when I'm not on my phone)