Poll: which basic human unlocks need a buff?

[Faulty Logic]

doesn't the AI deserve something?

The AI got mini-exos anytime a core post is killed, and +10 to floor for the same event.

And bringing these to roughly equal value compared to other unlocks doesn't buff humans much at all.

[chemical_art]

*shyish digs foot into the ground*

I'm sorry, my relationship with the AI is...complicated.

On the one hand, I don't like them sending thousands of ships (low caps) to my door, because it is boring. But I do want them to make superweapons / other ai toys to attack me with.

I want something in the works to attack low cap units in general to go with these player buffs.

[TIE Viper]

I voted for the top 4 (for similar reasons as everybody) among a few others.

But I wanted to add emphasis on a few of the others that might be overshadowed by the poll's leaders.

Scout Starships: I'm dying to know who unlocks scout starships unless he/she was going for galactic-wide scouting with impunity early on for planning strategy purposes?  Other than getting a perma-cloaked unit without needing a factory, are there any realistic reasons to unlock scout starships mkII or mkIII when the regular scout unlocks have way more use?  I haven't found any yet (unless I am missing something. )

On Zenith Space-time Manipulators: I normally would never consider using these given that I get logistics command stations for free unless I was on a X or snake, etc. type map.  Their benefits on any other than the above-mentioned map types are supplemental in a very minor way (unless I am missing something...again  ) especially if you are making use of logistic command stations, and also the benefit decreases as your empire grows.  Thoughts?  If these are changed, can they be changed to be worthwhile on most maps without making them super OP on the X/snake type maps?

The mini-fort questions: Do these require too much 'babysitting'?  I'm only implying a small tweak of some sort.  My game play indicates that they seem to only be able to hold small amounts of border aggression by themselves.  This doesn't usually give me very much benefit although their k cost is quite cheap.  I don't play with them terribly often.  Are they specifically intended to be used in conjunction with some turret defenses?  And if not intended specifically with turrets, then a small buff, enough that you don't have to run over there with your fleet anyways as you would if the mini-forts weren't there?  The nemesis champions with their tag alongs kinda eat mini-forts for breakfast...

[Kahuna]

If I had a way to mod AI War these balance problems would be solved in a month of 2.

[Chthon]

The mini-fort questions: Do these require too much 'babysitting'?  I'm only implying a small tweak of some sort.  My game play indicates that they seem to only be able to hold small amounts of border aggression by themselves.  This doesn't usually give me very much benefit although their k cost is quite cheap.  I don't play with them terribly often.  Are they specifically intended to be used in conjunction with some turret defenses?  And if not intended specifically with turrets then a small buff, enough that you don't have to run over there with your fleet anyways as you would if the mini-forts weren't there?  The nemesis champions with their tag alongs kinda eat mini-forts for breakfast...

I find the mini-forts on the front lines to be a supplementary force.  So long as they're not focused they will do enough damage to be worth it.  Behind front lines they can deal with small amounts of ships that slip through the cracks.  Solo on the front lines?  Are you insane?  They die too quickly.

[TIE Viper]

I find the mini-forts on the front lines to be a supplementary force.  So long as they're not focused they will do enough damage to be worth it.  Behind front lines they can deal with small amounts of ships that slip through the cracks.  Solo on the front lines?  Are you insane?  They die too quickly.

Um...yes.  I am insane.  Or actually I haven't altered the currently insane defense of the game I am in as to accommodate going from the HW to the HW + 1 .  Unfortunately I haven't been able to play very often lately so my progress through my current game is rather sluggish.  None of the other seldom times I've used them is fresh enough in my memory to give anything useful which was basically why I was asking this about the mini-forts in the first place.

[kasnavada]

Raid Starships
Enclave Starships
Transport IIs

With honorable mentions to:

Turrets in general
Station upgrades
And mobile repair stations

Now how do we want these buffed?

About drones : enclave could get a cap of basic drone at the start, in addition to the ones unlocked by turrets. So if you unlock the lvl 4 enclave at least you'd get a drone to use with.

About their efficiency : on a game I played, 3 enclaves with the 4 turrets unlocked (the 2 basic ones + the mercenary) handed 60-100 low level "normal cap" ships. Drones are a very good addition to any defense, but their unlock cost, being dependant on turrets, is way too high. You could add a repair drone (sacrifices to add its life to a ship) with the mobile repair station unlock.

Mobile repair stations
I do not think they need a buff, rather than the other repair mechanisms need a nerf. IMO, fortresses are way to good at repairing blobs, so the 1k mini-fortress will be enough for most to get repairs underway. AS said above, engineers can fill the role on attack for a much cheaper cost, fortress do the same on defense for a much cheaper cost. I'd recommend a game with the zenith medic, to see how effective repairs are on offense.

Station upgrades
Those got upgraded a LOT during the last years. Basically most play either low AIP route, so they need 5 warp + a few military + unlock ressources.
Others play high AIP route, got a lot of planets, so they get to unlock ressources and warp station. Little point in using stations since the ressources unlocks are enough for cheaper cost and higher results.

To boost them, I'd make the warp jammer a building instead of a station, that gives AIP on death, which frees 5 stations slots. And I'd make the station based on modules so it corresponds better to whatever the player needs : A colony ship builds a station, lvl 1, lvl 2, lvl 3 (lvl 2 and 3 need to be unlocked of course), with respectively 1 - 3 modules. Station can build :
- a translocater (like the military station)
- a shield (in addition, reduce the cap for FF).
- ressource enhancers (bonus to ressources)
- energy enhancers (bonus to energy)
- speed boost module
- bonus to attack / armor / radar (may require additional unlocks)
- missile launcher / repair capabilities / laser / snipe (may require turret unlocks / mobile repair station unlock, and delete the mini-fortress as they become redundant)
- ...
- profit !

Of course, add the same to AI stations .

[TIE Viper]

Station upgrades
Those got upgraded a LOT during the last years. Basically most play either low AIP route, so they need 5 warp + a few military + unlock ressources.
Others play high AIP route, got a lot of planets, so they get to unlock ressources and warp station. Little pont in using stations since the ressources unlocks are enough for cheaper cost.

To boost them, I'd make the warp jammer a building instead of a station, that gives AIP on death. And I'd make the station based on modules so it corresponds better to whatever the player needs : A colony ship builds a station, lvl 1, lvl 2, lvl 3 (lvl 2 and 3 need to be unlocked of course), with respectively 1 - 3 modules. Station can build :
- a translocater (like the military station)
- a shield (in addition, reduce the cap for FF).
- ressource enhancers (bonus to ressources)
- energy enhancers (bonus to energy)
- speed boost module
- bonus to attack / armor / radar (may require additional unlocks)
- missile launcher / repair capabilities / laser / snipe (may require turret unlocks / mobile repair station unlock, and delete the mini-fortress as they become redundant)
- ...
- profit !

Of course, add the same to AI stations .

If I'm playing a high AIP game the only station unlocks I do fairly consistently are the military ones.

LOVE the modular command station idea!!!  Tremendous flexibility!  We can keep all the current mkII and mkIII command station attributes while at the same time add this whole bunch of new options thereby increasing customization depending on that planet's need.  Yes!

And the mkII and mkIII unlocks applying to the colony ships for a command station with 2 or 3 module slots...yes Yes YES!!!

GIMMIE GIMMIE!

WANT THAT!

And the mini-forts wouldn't be guaranteed to be redundant by those changes unless you could have the option to move the modules around like you can move the forts as to not be under a shield, etc.

[KDR_11k]

I guess what people want out of the enclave's drones is pretty much a Protoss Carrier. Also I believe multiple Enclaves don't stack in terms of drone caps?

[TechSY730]

Although a modular command station would give a tool to give pretty much everyone what they want out of command stations, sadly, it proabably isn't going to happen for the "core". I think modules as a central, "you must use" base-game construct was vetoed by Chris as some point.

However, I think the possibility of it being an optional lobby setting (maybe requiring at least expansion N, idk) was not ruled out. When turned on, all human buildable command stations (and maybe even the home as well) would use modular variants rather than the seperate units we have now, and the functionality of those separate unlocks would be put into command station modules.

But that is probably outside of scope for this.


I would use enclave drones more if there was a "Brave neinzul enclave" option, so I don't have to keep re-selecting it manually to update my control groups so it goes with my fleet.

[Toranth]

I guess what people want out of the enclave's drones is pretty much a Protoss Carrier. Also I believe multiple Enclaves don't stack in terms of drone caps?

No, multiple enclaves don't give more drones.  Capped at 24, I think.
I would prefer it if drone availability was tied directly to turret mark level - aka, start with Mk I unlocked, unlock Mk II with Mk II turrets, Mk III drones with Mk III turrets, Mk IV drones with Mk IV turrets (yes, I want those too).  And then, the Mk IV/V fleetship production tab being available only with the Mk V enclave.

Right now, you can do much the same thing if you are using Neinzul ships, or Autobombs - use the Enclaves as a disposable fighting ship source, convenient for raiding and reinforcements.  Far more useful, IMO, than using engineers or MRS to do repairs.

Although a modular command station would give a tool to give pretty much everyone what they want out of command stations, sadly, it proabably isn't going to happen for the "core". I think modules as a central, "you must use" base-game construct was vetoed by Chris as some point.

Yeah, not to mention the complications of re-building modular stuff (aka, why the Mod-Forts don't leave remains).  Always disappointed when this idea comes up, because I think it would be great.

As an alternative, what about a single "Generic Command Station" that allowed the building of an "Enhancement node" that gave the special abilities that currently belong to command stations?  Kinda of like the FS Refugee Outpost/city components: requires a command station, cannot have more than 1 in a system, must be built within X distance of command station, etc.
It avoids the complications of modules, while still allowing some customization... and would allow my Homeworld to get some of the enhancements that other systems get.  I've never liked it that my Homeworld can't get the bonuses that other command stations do.



Edit:  Almost forgot my original reason for responding:

Now how do we want these buffed?

I would like:
raid starships to be reduced to 1000/3000 for mkII-III
enclave starships to be reduced to 1000/2000/2000/12000 for mks II-III-IV-V
Transports IIs to be reduced to 2000 k and their health doubled.

Turrets to get an across-the-board k cost decrease, of ~500 for mkIIs and ~1000 for mkIIIs
No idea on the station upgrades, maybe remove their caps, or concentrate their benefit into ~two stations
Mobile repair stations to cost something in the 2000-3000 range.

I think that turret costs need to be standardized first.  Right now, it can cost between 2250 and 7000K to unlock Mk III turrets.
Yet all the turrets have roughly the same cap-damage stats, and similar multipliers (please ignore the HBCs; they're special.)

How much should a Mk II turret cost?  They're twice the damage, HP, and have radar damping.  However, they can't move.  That last factor being quite significant, I think a Mk II turret should cose much less than a Mk II fleetship.  I unlock Basic IIs sometimes during normal games, so somewhere in the 500-750K range should be about right. 
-- Spider Turrets would need to remain higher, maybe 2000K?  3000 has always seemed a little high, but they are pretty impressive turrets (if not in DPS).

What about Mk III turrets then?  Again, they're three times the base turret stats - but still can't move.  I'd suggest 2000K for Mk III turrets - a third of what the Mk III fleetship costs, but you don't get a Mk IV turret for free and they still can't move.

Finally, I'd love to see Mk IV turrets - same stat progression, but costing 3000-4000K.

PS - Keith, is there any reason that Radar Damping range on the HBC goes UP with Mark IV rather than down?  12500 - 12000 - 13000

Strongly agree on the Enclave split. 

[Bognor]

Scout Starships: I'm dying to know who unlocks scout starships unless he/she was going for galactic-wide scouting with impunity early on for planning strategy purposes?  Other than getting a perma-cloaked unit without needing a factory, are there any realistic reasons to unlock scout starships mkII or mkIII when the regular scout unlocks have way more use?  I haven't found any yet (unless I am missing something. )

Mark IVs also provide counter-missile coverage, though that wasn't indicated anywhere in the game due to a bug that's just been fixed.  Mark IIs only cost 250 knowledge to unlock, so I've done so just to extend the anti-sniper coverage.

On Zenith Space-time Manipulators: I normally would never consider using these given that I get logistics command stations for free unless I was on a X or snake, etc. type map.  Their benefits on any other than the above-mentioned map types are supplemental in a very minor way (unless I am missing something...again  ) especially if you are making use of logistic command stations, and also the benefit decreases as your empire grows.  Thoughts?  If these are changed, can they be changed to be worthwhile on most maps without making them super OP on the X/snake type maps?

I often unlock these.  They stack with each other and with the boost all command stations give, and are excellent for SuperTerminal hacking and homeworld defense.  I've normally got a Zenith Power Generator so the energy cost doesn't deter me.

[kasnavada]

I would use enclave drones more if there was a "Brave neinzul enclave" option, so I don't have to keep re-selecting it manually to update my control groups so it goes with my fleet.

V and X commands carry over to the produced units. It also moves the enclave. I do not know if it solves your needs though...

I would prefer it if drone availability was tied directly to turret mark level - aka, start with Mk I unlocked, unlock Mk II with Mk II turrets, Mk III drones with Mk III turrets, Mk IV drones with Mk IV turrets (yes, I want those too).  And then, the Mk IV/V fleetship production tab being available only with the Mk V enclave.

No idea why I forgot to write this in my post. I'd like default lvl 1 drones to be unlocked from the start.

Although a modular command station would give a tool to give pretty much everyone what they want out of command stations, sadly, it proabably isn't going to happen for the "core". I think modules as a central, "you must use" base-game construct was vetoed by Chris as some point.

You could place a few "default" constructs much like the default "riot ships".

Also, I'm surprised to see no comment on the idea of making the warp station a "standard" building instead of a station.

[kasnavada]

For station unlocks and to buff turrets, instead of modules, how about "EXO-boosters" like the EXO shields for the ressources ?

You could add EXO booster which would give :
- radar dampening
- more hp
- more armor
- more attack.

Or, another idea, to get "immobile" boosters structures, which would give bonuses like the munition / armor booster does on the 20 closest turrets.

[Kjara]

I think that turret costs need to be standardized first.  Right now, it can cost between 2250 and 7000K to unlock Mk III turrets.
Yet all the turrets have roughly the same cap-damage stats, and similar multipliers (please ignore the HBCs; they're special.)

How much should a Mk II turret cost?  They're twice the damage, HP, and have radar damping.  However, they can't move.  That last factor being quite significant, I think a Mk II turret should cose much less than a Mk II fleetship.  I unlock Basic IIs sometimes during normal games, so somewhere in the 500-750K range should be about right. 
-- Spider Turrets would need to remain higher, maybe 2000K?  3000 has always seemed a little high, but they are pretty impressive turrets (if not in DPS).

What about Mk III turrets then?  Again, they're three times the base turret stats - but still can't move.  I'd suggest 2000K for Mk III turrets - a third of what the Mk III fleetship costs, but you don't get a Mk IV turret for free and they still can't move.

Finally, I'd love to see Mk IV turrets - same stat progression, but costing 3000-4000K.

Agree with standardizing somewhat, but if you plan on riding the super-terminal AIP train down, mk II and III missile + laser's at least pay for themselves (based on how much extra AIP you can reduce vs the knowledge you can gather with that AIP), and they both help to take care of bombers that forts and shields fare so poorly against.