Poll: What should be done with special forces?

[Diazo]

The reason I went with a wave that spawns fresh is to make it more predictable, and therefore balanceble.

If you take in random ships from all over the galaxy you are making it very random and one person will hardly notice them while another will have their empire destroyed by it.

Due to the nature of AI War, stacking mechanics on top of other mechanics tends to result in unanticipated behavior that ends up being more trouble then it should.

Note that this would mean the Special Forces Guard post is just another guard post with the special function of 'Warp Gate -Special Forces', you would not have the ships traveling between posts any more.

Well, I suppose you could leave that in so you are messing around with fewer things in the game at once but I really don't care what happens to the existing Special Forces mechanic as I simply don't notice it at the moment.

D.

[Draco18s]

Well, then why are they trying to attack with only 20 to 30 ships when their total firepower is no where near enough to take the planet on?
That would not be smart behavior.

When I am talking about "clumping up" more, I am not talking about 20 to 30 ship groups, I'm talking about large enough groups to actually make a difference.

I've already got a game where two thousand five hundred free threat isn't enough for the AI to "want" to take my planet.  More than enough to actually do so, if they are tricked into actually swarming through, but not enough for the AI to decide to do it on its own.

I fail to see how 500 special forces units are going to somehow tip the scale alone.

[keith.lamothe]

Due to the nature of AI War, stacking mechanics on top of other mechanics tends to result in unanticipated behavior that ends up being more trouble then it should.

I thought that was the fun part

[chemical_art]

I'm not a fan of directly increasing ai homeworlds get threat directly.

I'm a fan of it causing the AI to go berserk and rally forces at the homeworld, then using the threat blob to attack weak spots of the human player.

[Diazo]

Due to the nature of AI War, stacking mechanics on top of other mechanics tends to result in unanticipated behavior that ends up being more trouble then it should.

I thought that was the fun part

It is certainly fun.

The first time.

After that, it's just painful. 

I'm looking at you, Mr. Raid Engine next to my starting homeworld.

D.

[TechSY730]

I've already got a game where two thousand five hundred free threat isn't enough for the AI to "want" to take my planet.  More than enough to actually do so, if they are tricked into actually swarming through, but not enough for the AI to decide to do it on its own.

This is technically a different issue, though it does impact this one: 7016: Reduce the firepower cutoff ratio that "stalking a wormhole" AI ships will wait for before entering

I fail to see how 500 special forces units are going to somehow tip the scale alone.

Well, if 500 would not be enough, they would wait for more until they do have enough, and just do other special forces duties (aid defense, hop into transports to try to raid, something) until they do get enough.

Part of the issue is that it is really easy for humans to build chokepoints so strong that nothing short of mothership/hunter killer spam could take out, and position it such that there is no "back way" for the AI to try to get to.
These sorts of "there aren't enough ships for the AI to do anything to me" is really a symptom of this bigger, far trickier to deal problem.

[TechSY730]

I'm not a fan of directly increasing ai homeworlds get threat directly.

I'm a fan of it causing the AI to go berserk and rally forces at the homeworld, then using the threat blob to attack weak spots of the human player.

I would like that too, and special forces are a great mechanic to get that "pool" of ships that will execute these actions (though it may pick up other freed stuff along the way, who knows?).
Part of the problem is that, 1, there often isn't enough of them to threaten a well defended human setup and 2, it is really easy to create a well defended human setup.

EDIT: Also, if your fleet is strong enough to take on a homeworld, chances are that it is strong enough to take on all the special forces ships and freed ships in the galaxy given their current average counts, even if they were smart and waited to go in together rather than just stream in.

[Draco18s]

I fail to see how 500 special forces units are going to somehow tip the scale alone.

Well, if 500 would not be enough, they would wait for more until they do have enough, and just do other special forces duties (aid defense, hop into transports to try to raid, something) until they do get enough.

If it takes 3000 ships to have enough FP to flood my world, and generating 3000 ships is trivially done by murdering three systems, then what power do a handful of special forces guard posts have?  They aren't going to build up 3000 ships collectively even ONCE over the course of a 16 hour game.

And if we boost their reinforcement numbers so that they do, so what?  It just turns into a cross planet attack and I don't even notice that they did anything.

[Diazo]

And if we boost their reinforcement numbers so that they do, so what?  It just turns into a cross planet attack and I don't even notice that they did anything.

This.

Special Forces need a change, not a buff. They are too similar to Threat at the moment.

A change to what is the question however.

D.

[TechSY730]

I fail to see how 500 special forces units are going to somehow tip the scale alone.

Well, if 500 would not be enough, they would wait for more until they do have enough, and just do other special forces duties (aid defense, hop into transports to try to raid, something) until they do get enough.

If it takes 3000 ships to have enough FP to flood my world, and generating 3000 ships is trivially done by murdering three systems, then what power do a handful of special forces guard posts have?  They aren't going to build up 3000 ships collectively even ONCE over the course of a 16 hour game.

And if we boost their reinforcement numbers so that they do, so what?  It just turns into a cross planet attack and I don't even notice that they did anything.

I'm not really sure much can be done for offensive variety.
We basically have for options:
-head towards the planet normally (possibly or possibly not waiting for enough firepower, and possibly or possibly not waiting for most if not all the group to arrive)
-package the ships up (if SF still uses "on the field" ships) in a wave and "teleport" them into a wave eligible system, possibly spawning them at the wormhole or spawning them at the border of the planet
-package the ships up (if SF still uses "on the field" ships) in a wave and "teleport" them into any non-warp jammed system (sort of like counter-attack waves), possibly spawning them at the wormhole or spawning them at the border of the planet
-introduce new raiding behavior (like packaging them in transports or cloaker starships or something funny like that), which is basically a fancier form of the first option
-"recycle" them and use the exo-points they are worth to make a new "mini-exo wave" that could use one of the above behaviors, but again, that is one of the other behaviors with different ships

So yea, I can't really see any way to add novel offensive variety. The idea to allow the special forces waves to be sent to any non-jammed planet like counter-attack waves can is intriguing, but may be a bit too disruptive/intrusive/annoying for some people's tastes.

EDIT: Though I can see something really crazy, like basically scrapping the current special forces all together, add some new crazy building type management thing like the hybrids have or something, and then call that special forces. That would be "special forces in name only" level change, which I didn't think was what this poll was all about.


In case you haven't noticed, I am more interested in adding new defensive variety for the AI, which is sorely lacking at the moment, which is why many of my suggestions don't really do much for offensive behavior. Not saying that I would object to new offensive behaviors of special forces, but that is not what I am focusing on at the moment.

[TechSY730]

And if we boost their reinforcement numbers so that they do, so what?  It just turns into a cross planet attack and I don't even notice that they did anything.

This.

Special Forces need a change, not a buff. They are too similar to Threat at the moment.

A change to what is the question however.

D.

Sorry, I never meant to say that all they needed was a buff; I agree that they need new behavior.
I would be against a complete re-imagining (aka, make it not based off of regular ships doing normal ship actions, even if you change how they spawn, where they spawn, or whatnot, and what they do), but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that as long as it uses fleet ships (or possibly any ship type that can easily be found in threat and/or waves), special forces will be redundant, no matter what fleet management behavior or warp/travel mechanics they happen to use? (new, novel behaviors don't count for this question)

[Diazo]

EDIT: Though I can see something really crazy, like basically scrapping the current special forces all together, add some new crazy building type management thing like the hybrids have or something, and then call that special forces. That would be "special forces in name only" level change, which I didn't think was what this poll was all about.

I've gone and jumped straight to this.

In their original concept, Special Forces were small groups of ships that moved around between Special Forces Posts and attacked the player without warning from unexpected directions.

This was before Threat existed as it does today. With Threat as it currently exists, it waits on the wormhole for its chance to attack the player unexpectedly when it thinks it has a chance and totally overshadows the Special Forces role.

Therefore to make Special Forces relevant, you need to rip them out totally and rebuild them from scratch.

My original idea (previously posted) is to make the Special Forces wave that spawns pretty much as a mini-exo wave that comes from  Special Forces Guard post and targets a high value structure as controlled by the player and ignores everything else.

The second idea I just had was a stealthy attack. Give the AI new unit called the Special Forces Transport or something. It has cloaking and is immune to Tachyon, Gravity and Tractor Beams giving it the ability to sneak past your primary defensive line. Launched from a Special Forces Post it would have a target such as an Adv. Factory.

 It would be small, only able to carry 20-30 ships (single HW, lowish AIP) and upon reaching the system with its target the transport self destructs, freeing the ships inside who then have to cross the system to their target, giving the player time to respond and save their high-value structure.

You would get a wave warning for this to make things fair but this gives the AI the ability to get small groups of ships past chokepoint worlds.

D.

edit: Yay, posts at the same time.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that as long as it uses fleet ships (or possibly any ship type that can easily be found in threat and/or waves), special forces will be redundant, no matter what special behavior or mechanics they happen to use?

As long as the Special Forces mechanic involves ships spawning in AI controlled space and don't give them something unique, yes, special forces will always be redundant as the Threat I lose in my attacks on AI systems will always overshadow it.

[TechSY730]

EDIT: Though I can see something really crazy, like basically scrapping the current special forces all together, add some new crazy building type management thing like the hybrids have or something, and then call that special forces. That would be "special forces in name only" level change, which I didn't think was what this poll was all about.

I've gone and jumped straight to this.

In their original concept, Special Forces were small groups of ships that moved around between Special Forces Posts and attacked the player without warning from unexpected directions.

This was before Threat existed as it does today. With Threat as it currently exists, it waits on the wormhole for its chance to attack the player unexpectedly when it thinks it has a chance and totally overshadows the Special Forces role.

Therefore to make Special Forces relevant, you need to rip them out totally and rebuild them from scratch.

My original idea (previously posted) is to make the Special Forces wave that spawns pretty much as a mini-exo wave that comes from  Special Forces Guard post and targets a high value structure as controlled by the player and ignores everything else.

The second idea I just had was a stealthy attack. Give the AI new unit called the Special Forces Transport or something. It has cloaking and is immune to Tachyon, Gravity and Tractor Beams giving it the ability to sneak past your primary defensive line. Launched from a Special Forces Post it would have a target such as an Adv. Factory.

 It would be small, only able to carry 20-30 ships (single HW, lowish AIP) and upon reaching the system with its target the transport self destructs, freeing the ships inside who then have to cross the system to their target, giving the player time to respond and save their high-value structure.

You would get a wave warning for this to make things fair but this gives the AI the ability to get small groups of ships past chokepoint worlds.

D.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that as long as it uses fleet ships (or possibly any ship type that can easily be found in threat and/or waves), special forces will be redundant, no matter what fleet management behavior or warp/travel mechanics they happen to use? (new, novel behaviors don't count for this question)

I guess you are.

Anyways, that should probably be a new option, the "New mechanic that is special forces in name only compared to the current special forces" option or something like that.

[Diazo]

Does posting at the same time as you count as double posting?

Anyways, I edited my previous post after your last one somehow.

But yes:

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that as long as it uses fleet ships (or possibly any ship type that can easily be found in threat and/or waves), special forces will be redundant, no matter what special behavior or mechanics they happen to use?

As long as the Special Forces mechanic involves ships spawning in AI controlled space and don't give them something unique, yes, special forces will always be redundant as the Threat I lose in my attacks on AI systems will always overshadow it.

D.

[RCIX]

Leave them as is (don't vote for others)

You had to know someone was going to vote for this and others...