Poll follow-up: the future of counterattack posts.

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, "Warp Counter attack Posts (do rework)" tied for second in the AI-side nerf poll, so I'm trying to figure out what that should look like.

My current guess is to:

Make the counterattack no longer able to go _anywhere_ (that isn't warp jammed) but instead be able to reach any planet within N hops of a warp gate.  For normal waves N is 1, but for these I'm thinking 3 or 4. 

A warp jammer would render its own planet ineligible (as before) but would not "block" the search from finding a planet "behind" it if it was within the normal number of hops.  Otherwise you could totally shut down counterattack posts (as more than normal waves with different size and timer) by just having a single chokepoint with a warp jammer, or having the planet(s) behind it have warp jammers.  Not a trivial thing to accomplish, due to K cost, but easier than I'd want it to be.


Thoughts?

[TechSY730]

I would say reduce the countdown time multiplier these get.
As this is supposed to be a nerf, not a buff, the wave size multiplier these get should go down as well.

This is in addition to any rework of the mechanic.

The biggest complaint I have seen is the very long countdown timer, which is why I am suggesting it.

[Diazo]

For me, I like the N hops away from a warp gate. Not only for re-working the guard post, but for future "get around the chokepoint" mechanics for the AI to increase the options it has for that.

I'm also thinking something like (Counter-attack Post Mk Level / 2) rounded down, +1  for how many hops away from a warp gate it can go. (Yes, that gives a Mk I counter attack post only 1 hop from a warp gate, but that's a Mk I.)

Again, to make it flexible to look at giving the AI new options in the future.

On the wave timer, I like the long countdown. It allows me to continue to do other stuff for a bit and then be back in time to intercept the wave.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, balance of the mkI is basically irrelevant; they can only ever be present directly adjacent to a human HW.  I'm actually not sure if it lets counterattack posts seed that close

On the countdown, what is it now, 14 or 15 minutes?  I could make it 10, or 8, or whatever.  Long enough to let you react, but less annoyingly long.  Though maybe some folks really don't want it any shorter   I don't want to reduce the size of the wave, though, otherwise it gets to be less of an event overall.

[TechSY730]

I think for "letting the AI get past chokepoints", teaching the AI how to deep strike may be a good idea. Like, there would be a chance that fast-ish units, or units with properties that are good for raiding (FF immunity, grav immunity, tractor immunity, cloaking, etc) will try to go to another planet in (with a preference, but NOT absolutley so, towards human planets going closer to the homeworld or other valuable structure) upon first coming from a wave or from AI space to non-AI space.

With the upcoming nerf to gravity, this would be quite threatening. Imaging those raid, bomber, maybe cloak, maybe FF immune ships having a chance to ignore stuff on your chokepoint, and just head straight for the "next planet in". If they can make it, they would have a far better chance to take out valuable infrastructure (like energy collectors) that may help take out the chokepoint indirectly.

Again, this should be a chance. Many, if not most of the time they should just use the current, "general purpose" logic.
Also, possibly, the stuff that wouldn't fall under the "raid classification" described in the first paragraph could have a chance to do this too, but just much less so. So occasionally, you may see your a whole wave try to do this, instead of only part of it (if you are playing schitzo waves).


However, expansion on this discussion should probably go on a new thread.

[TechSY730]

Yea, balance of the mkI is basically irrelevant; they can only ever be present directly adjacent to a human HW.  I'm actually not sure if it lets counterattack posts seed that close

On the countdown, what is it now, 14 or 15 minutes?  I could make it 10, or 8, or whatever.  Long enough to let you react, but less annoyingly long.  Though maybe some folks really don't want it any shorter   I don't want to reduce the size of the wave, though, otherwise it gets to be less of an event overall.

I'd rather not see the wave size go down either, but I suggested it because this is supposedly about nerfing for counterattack posts, not buffing. However, given other mechanics changes, perhaps the countdown could go down, the wave size remain the same, but it still be an overall nerf.

[Diazo]

The thing is, why is the long countdown an issue?

The only reason I can think of is that players suspend all other operations until the counterattack wave hits which I would not consider a game issue.

With the nice long countdown, I can finish the attack that triggered the counter-attack, have time to replace moderate to significant losses and be in position to intercept.

If I only take light losses on the attack that triggers the counter-attack, I have time to go off and start working on something else in the mean time and still be able to get my fleet back in position to intercept.

Now, because counter-attacks are player triggered, shortening the countdown is not really a problem, I would just change my timing so I still had my fleet ready to intercept.

But still, how is a longer countdown a problem?

D.

edit: I did not vote for these by the way, I'm quite happy with them as they are. My assumption on why these got voted so high is for the snake and maze type maps, where you can get a system that is 7 or 8 hops behind the front line easily and running your fleet back to clean up the counter-wave takes up a significant amount of time.

For reference, on the lattice map I am used to, both AI homeworlds are usually only 6 to 7 hops from my homeworld so running back to defend a counter-wave consumes much less time for me.

[chemical_art]

For me, I can two things that can be done that is a minor nerf, but still effective, in addition to shortening the timers.

Since it is a "nerf", remove the annoying logic of having 3 fighters spawn in a different corner then the rest of the ai fleet. It only encourages micro. It doesn't make it harder if you are paying attention, yet if you are not it can wreck your system as your fleet is out of position.

[TechSY730]

For me, I can two things that can be done that is a minor nerf, but still effective, in addition to shortening the timers.

Since it is a "nerf", remove the annoying logic of having 3 fighters spawn in a different corner then the rest of the ai fleet. It only encourages micro. It doesn't make it harder if you are paying attention, yet if you are not it can wreck your system as your fleet is out of position.

If there is going to be a "pre-wave diversion" from the AI, I would say two things.
1. make it such that it is not every wave, just some of them
2. make the diversion significant enough to matter more than just something that can be overcome with minor micro

I think they should keep some form of pre-wave diversion, as we sometimes do it to the AI. (Hey, I've done the whole "send a transport in first" to mess with the alpha strike thing before)

EDIT: Oh wait, were you only talking about that logic when used for counterattack waves?

[keith.lamothe]

I think for "letting the AI get past chokepoints", teaching the AI how to deep strike may be a good idea. Like, there would be a chance that fast-ish units, or units with properties that are good for raiding (FF immunity, grav immunity, tractor immunity, cloaking, etc) will try to go to another planet in (with a preference, but NOT absolutley so, towards human planets going closer to the homeworld or other valuable structure) upon first coming from a wave or from AI space to non-AI space.

With the upcoming nerf to gravity, this would be quite threatening. Imaging those raid, bomber, maybe cloak, maybe FF immune ships having a chance to ignore stuff on your chokepoint, and just head straight for the "next planet in". If they can make it, they would have a far better chance to take out valuable infrastructure (like energy collectors) that may help take out the chokepoint indirectly.

Again, this should be a chance. Many, if not most of the time they should just use the current, "general purpose" logic.
Also, possibly, the stuff that wouldn't fall under the "raid classification" described in the first paragraph could have a chance to do this too, but just much less so. So occasionally, you may see your a whole wave try to do this, instead of only part of it (if you are playing schitzo waves).

Exos already effectively try to beeline through whatever to get to their target (often your home command station).  So having a wave have an off chance of organizing as an exo around its starship would be a fairly straightforward way of achieving this.  Though it would probably annoy people significantly due to the speed rule

[chemical_art]

EDIT: Oh wait, were you only talking about that logic when used for counterattack waves?

Yes, just the logic for the waves. Your idea of giving the diversion some teeth is cool, but the point of the poll was a nerf, not a buff. My removing of the fighters was a slight nerf.

For me, when I asked for a rework, I voted to make them less annoying, not more so.

[TechSY730]

I think for "letting the AI get past chokepoints", teaching the AI how to deep strike may be a good idea. Like, there would be a chance that fast-ish units, or units with properties that are good for raiding (FF immunity, grav immunity, tractor immunity, cloaking, etc) will try to go to another planet in (with a preference, but NOT absolutley so, towards human planets going closer to the homeworld or other valuable structure) upon first coming from a wave or from AI space to non-AI space.

With the upcoming nerf to gravity, this would be quite threatening. Imaging those raid, bomber, maybe cloak, maybe FF immune ships having a chance to ignore stuff on your chokepoint, and just head straight for the "next planet in". If they can make it, they would have a far better chance to take out valuable infrastructure (like energy collectors) that may help take out the chokepoint indirectly.

Again, this should be a chance. Many, if not most of the time they should just use the current, "general purpose" logic.
Also, possibly, the stuff that wouldn't fall under the "raid classification" described in the first paragraph could have a chance to do this too, but just much less so. So occasionally, you may see your a whole wave try to do this, instead of only part of it (if you are playing schitzo waves).

Exos already effectively try to beeline through whatever to get to their target (often your home command station).  So having a wave have an off chance of organizing as an exo around its starship would be a fairly straightforward way of achieving this.  Though it would probably annoy people significantly due to the speed rule

What I was thinking is that unless they are in an exo, the units that are chosen to do so wouldn't "group up" but just beeline to the "other" planet. No speed "hacks", no leader to group with, no need to figure out who to group move with, just a simple "move to planet" order instead of a...whatever the AI uses for normal attacking logic. Once it gets to that new planet, then it goes back to the regular logic. Basically, it is how we humans deep strike, "just keep pushing", but we got no special bonuses.

EDIT: Oh wait, were you only talking about that logic when used for counterattack waves?

Yes, just the logic for the waves. Your idea of giving the diversion some teeth is cool, but the point of the poll was a nerf, not a buff. My removing of the fighters was a slight nerf.

Oh. For counterattack waves (as opposed to "general" waves), yea, removing the 3 fighter diversion would be a good idea. They spawn too far out for that sort of technique to work.

[Hearteater]

Although I don't think these really need the nerf, I'm ok with the X hops in logic.  It would have nearly no effect on any of my normal games since my controlled space is rarely more than 4 systems deep.

[TechSY730]

About the chokepoint balance thing, I have made a new thread about it.

http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,12678.0.html

[Faulty Logic]

Since the counter post won under "do rework," how about a small wave (minimum time or even smaller) which can hit any non-jammed planet, with the old countdown of 60 seconds.