Arcen Games

General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 01:03:38 PM

Title: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 01:03:38 PM
Nominations from this thread (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11175.0.html).  Also look there if you want an explanation of what we're doing here.

So, who gets the bat?  3 votes per person this time, and I'll try to do something with the top 3 results, but probably not more than that because "processing" the results tends to significantly bog down if there's a ton of winners.

This is specifically just for the human units.  Obviously, nerfing some units will nerf them for both sides, but there's a separate poll from the specifically "nerf this for AI usage" nominations.

Thanks for the feedback :)
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Diazo on July 20, 2012, 02:37:27 PM
Only voted for energy collector. It is simply too much energy for free at this point.

However, I was surprised to see the Zenith Bombard on this list.

Yes, it owns mid-game but late game against core worlds and homeworlds it's almost useless. Everything has Antimatter Bomb immunity.

I got them from an ARS last game, if I was doing it over I'd ship-hack to get something else, that's how bad they were for me in the end-game.

D.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: TechSY730 on July 20, 2012, 02:41:57 PM
Only voted for energy collector. It is simply too much energy for free at this point.

However, I was surprised to see the Zenith Bombard on this list.

Yes, it owns mid-game but late game against core worlds and homeworlds it's almost useless. Everything has Antimatter Bomb immunity.

I got them from an ARS last game, if I was doing it over I'd ship-hack to get something else, that's how bad they were for me in the end-game.

D.

Sure they can't help take out the core guard posts, the forcefields, and the home, but won't they pull their weight against the horde of Mk. V fleet ships and Mk. V guardians/starships the AI will send at you to try to stop you?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Diazo on July 20, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
I found they did not because they died before getting a second salvo off.

They are artillery units, when AI ships can close the range on them they just die (which I agree with for gameplay/balance reasons.)

Their intended targets all have Anti Matter immunity (or radar dampening) so they are hardly useful.

And so many of the AI ships are under forcefields anyway, as those are Anti-Matter immune, the bombards can't even attack them while the forcefield is still intact making them even less useful.

Did their powerful alpha-strike kill a lot of AI units? Yes.

They did not get a second shot off however and their construction costs were not worth that single salvo. (To me anyway).

Having said that, I can see where in mid-game these things are too powerful. Unless there is a force field in system, they can clear an AI system in 3 to 4 salvos, it's not until the core/homeworlds that their usefulness goes away.

(I will admit to only playing a single game recently with bombards, maybe my experience was an outlier?)

D.

edit: To clarify, after clearing the warp point with short-range ships (fighters/bombers/etc.) and warping my Bombards in, they got roughly 1 kill to every 10 or 15 my fleet ball got. And that was often clean up after my fleet ball had closed the range and knocked the force field/guard post down to allow the bombards to even attack.

I had wanted to use my bombards as my primary attack to take advantage of their range and use my fleet ball to protect it from mobile AI ships but sitting there taking fire from a Missile guard post and the wormhole guard posts without returning any fire forced me to use my fleet ball as my attack and the bombards for clean up.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: BobTheJanitor on July 20, 2012, 04:07:30 PM
Can I vote for 'not my botnet golem!' by chance?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 04:11:36 PM
Can I vote for 'not my botnet golem!' by chance?
You could either vote for other things to decrease the botnet's relative lead or just use one vote on the "none" option and not use the other two.  None is getting more than I thought it would ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Martyn van Buren on July 20, 2012, 04:41:12 PM
I'd really like to see some work done on the spirecraft; I've only really used martyrs, siege towers, and scouts, but martyrs and scouts made me feel so guilty that I pretty much stopped using asteroids altogether.  It does sound like the jumpships and penetrators may have a similar problem but I know from hearsay.

EDIT: On reflection, might it be worth removing the lower tiers of the best spirecraft entirely and making them something you get only from the rarest asteroids?  I'd feel a lot better about martyrs and scouts if in the course of the whole game I only got enough asteroids to build one cap of martyrs and building one scout would mean one less martyr?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: BobTheJanitor on July 20, 2012, 04:55:17 PM
On a completely random note, reading the list quickly and seeing 'shield bearer' above the V of the word 'gravity' made my brain read 'shield beaver'. I would now like a Shield Beaver to be implemented immediately. I have no idea what it would do, but it would be awesome.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 04:58:32 PM
On a completely random note, reading the list quickly and seeing 'shield bearer' above the V of the word 'gravity' made my brain read 'shield beaver'. I would now like a Shield Beaver to be implemented immediately. I have no idea what it would do, but it would be awesome.
We never could figure out how it turned driftwood and leaves into a 10 GW forcefield generator...
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: zoutzakje on July 20, 2012, 08:30:36 PM
I voted for none. I'm happy with all of these as they are now. I don't get why botnet is being voted so much. If you think it's overpowered, play on moderate and see what +40 AIP can do to you. And zombie defense can have a bad impact on your game as well. I've seen them try and fail to take out massive threat. The result wasn't pretty.
I got a botnet in my current game and it's having a hard time doing anything, with all the spire fleet ships and hybrids flying around. There's a lot of stuff out there already that can't be zombified.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Hearteater on July 20, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
I don't get why botnet is being voted so much.
500,000,000 DPS
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 09:34:55 PM
The Botnet didn't get very good grades in math, and it's been compensating ever since.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Cyborg on July 20, 2012, 10:20:59 PM
Don't touch the botnet…it's so much fun to use, and it's not breaking any games, is it?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 10:31:59 PM
Don't touch the botnet…it's so much fun to use, and it's not breaking any games, is it?
You mean aside from inhaling 2000+ ship waves on 10/10?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: TechSY730 on July 20, 2012, 10:39:51 PM
Don't touch the botnet…it's so much fun to use, and it's not breaking any games, is it?

IMHO, yes, it is.

Or at least on all but the highest of difficulties where the AIP cost of medium or the exo-waves of hard.

If nothing else, these things are great at scaring away threat forever, due to their ludicrous firepower.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Cyborg on July 20, 2012, 11:08:03 PM
 :-\

That's how I roll on high levels.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 20, 2012, 11:19:26 PM
Particularly since opinion is divided (on the "fun" issue, mainly), if the botnet wins (and it looks like it will), I won't just apply a bruteforce nerf or whatever.  I'll probably start a thread where we can go back over previously suggested approaches and perhaps some new ones, and probably do a yes/no poll on whether to actually do the favorite.  Or something like that, it doesn't have to be a complicated process, but I don't want to wind up with a less-fun game.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Giegue on July 21, 2012, 12:23:17 AM
but the botnet is so much fun to use! :(

if you need to do anything, just make them rare or something.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Hearteater on July 21, 2012, 12:43:41 AM
Got my first suggestion ready: Instead of 20million x50 attacks, why not Instant Kill x50?  You no longer need to worry about its dps, and it is more than balanced with insta-kill immunities.  Balancing the number of shots upwards would even be reasonable if it wasn't feeling right at 50/second.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: chemical_art on July 21, 2012, 12:45:26 AM
I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Coppermantis on July 21, 2012, 12:58:40 AM
Maybe make botnets only seed on higher levels of Broken Golems. That way if you want to have potential access to Botnets you have to put up with bigger Exos.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: unclean on July 21, 2012, 01:24:46 AM
Personally I think the other golems are all really fun, so no harm if the botnet just gets taken down to their level.

I mean it's fun and all, but having every game be
>find botnet
>botnet eats every wave, forever
gets old after a while
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: TechSY730 on July 21, 2012, 01:29:56 AM
Personally I think the other golems are all really fun, so no harm if the botnet just gets taken down to their level.

I mean it's fun and all, but having every game be
>find botnet
>botnet eats every wave, forever
gets old after a while

Exactly, this is why I think the botnet golem is past the OP to a fun level and into an OP to the point of breaking a huge chunk of the game level.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: PokerChen on July 21, 2012, 02:01:31 AM
Got my first suggestion ready: Instead of 20million x50 attacks, why not Instant Kill x50?  You no longer need to worry about its dps, and it is more than balanced with insta-kill immunities.  Balancing the number of shots upwards would even be reasonable if it wasn't feeling right at 50/second.

On the Botnet and its apparent power:
- One thing to keep in mind is that it is the only Golem that cannot help you at all in a homeworld or core-world assault (unless Raid Engines are involved).
- - It can only fire at mark I-IV non-zombie, reclaimable fleetships, so its DPS is really just for show and threat-firepower calculations. (I remember that we covered this last year. :P)
- - The maximum HP for a valid fleetship is 2~4M (Electric Bombers, Shield Bearers, Sentinel Frigates, Mirrors don't count). Most ships it fights have 500K or less. One can remove a zero with essentially no ill-effects.
- Similarly, if you go and put insta-kill on that golem, the only gameplay effect is the addition of 3 ships to the non-target list (Sentinel Frigates/Bullet-proof Fighter/Eyebots, it cannot hit Neinzul or Spire ships due to their Reclaim immunity).
- Given the binary nature of its valid targets (and I've used Botnets a lot), if the AI gets multiple immune unlocks they become progressively more difficult to use offensively. If a player switches off schizo waves (how many high difficulty people play with it off?) and face such ships / face Youngling or Spireling AI, you suddenly have a useless golem on your hands.

- So, Botnets are very OP if the AI has no such unlocks (majority of games), which won't improve by adding insta-kill since triangle ships are always reclaimable.

- A straight up DPS decrease to sane levels makes the Botnet suffer from a mark-dependent decrease in utility. Putting it under glass is actually a "good-idea", but we don't want to nerf its conversion into oblivion when the player wants to protect his golem.

I would suggest alternative solutions:

- Change the nature of its reclamation targetting logic to something more like a massive Maw (vacuums ships and converts them), and then drop its (now generic) DPS to ~5M + decrease the conversion rate... (20 per second?) This shifts the Botnet back towards combat and away from insta-gib. It will now also suffer better from FF-firepower decrease without affecting conversion.

- Also, we could try not having AI waves be 99% fleet-ships. Add more starships to each wave, perhaps by having the numbers scale better with AIP, say 1 per 40 AIP. Or, have starship-heavy waves.

- EDIT: Aside from the other proposed changes to its zombie-mechanics, of course.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: PokerChen on July 21, 2012, 02:34:29 AM
Separately, I wanted to make a note about the Hive golem in the midst of of all these 10/10 Games and Botnet-OP-defense...

- Hive Golems have up to 140M burst DPS, which is more powerful than Botnets once you account for overkill. One can be devoted to defense in the same way and defend against a lot of ships in combination with Riot Tazers.

- A lot of the Botnet's resident power is invested in the zombies that it creates. 25 ships per second is nothing. It's all in the 100s of ships that patrol your systems and distract the AI from targeting important things. When I include the Devourer Golem in my games, I would actually go for Hive Golems instead. Once you kill the AI-gravity stuff, that Hive Golem will help you clean house on an AI core planet + incoming Core Raid Engine wave, and leave you space to assault the home planet directly. Botnets can't do that.

- They are functionally similar in the creation of temporary ships that will help you kill things. Hives are hard-countered by gravity and fortresses, just as Botnets are hard-countered by ships it can't shoot. Neither of these situations occur often in wave defense, and on offense gravity is still a lot rarer than things immune to reclamation.

- Yet, we're not complaining at the moment about Hive Golem stats. I guess most people don't like the cookie monster.

Best solution? Botnet Golems are only available when you have the Cookie Monster enabled. :P :P :P
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Wanderer on July 21, 2012, 04:40:07 AM
- A lot of the Botnet's resident power is invested in the zombies that it creates. 25 ships per second is nothing.

Since I'm currently watching a colossus eat my fort, I figured I'd comment on this.  I disagree that the 25 ships/second is nothing.  What they do is immediately distract the wave's firepower from more 'permanent' targets, as well as the botnet itself.  It's continuously adding more to its 'theoretical' firepower, as well, if you consider its generated zombies as part of its DPS.  That distraction, however, is nothing to shake a stick at.  It's a significant distractor to the wave's CF'ing abilities and how badly it'll hurt your economy.

Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: PokerChen on July 21, 2012, 05:00:36 AM
- A lot of the Botnet's resident power is invested in the zombies that it creates. 25 ships per second is nothing.

Since I'm currently watching a colossus eat my fort, I figured I'd comment on this.  I disagree that the 25 ships/second is nothing.  What they do is immediately distract the wave's firepower from more 'permanent' targets, as well as the botnet itself.  It's continuously adding more to its 'theoretical' firepower, as well, if you consider its generated zombies as part of its DPS.  That distraction, however, is nothing to shake a stick at.  It's a significant distractor to the wave's CF'ing abilities and how badly it'll hurt your economy.

Yeah, I overstated there - but continue the quote -> it's a comparative between the botnet itself and the number of zombies it generates.

The last time we discussed golem balance, before we wrote the wiki - the discussion settled around the uncapped nature of player zombies and dyson gatlings on defense. Once the zombie ball got rolling, most AI waves and reinforcements will end up feeding this troll. By then it really didn't matter whether the botnet golem was generating 10 ships per second, or 25 ships or 50 ships. If we felt like it, we can routinely sweep adjacent mk-IV planets to end up with more ships that were nearly as powerful as the dyson gatlings.

Since then, we capped the dyson numbers - but we haven't fixed the zombie numbers. It's not like any other player assets, which are capped. I strongly feel that this, above all, is the problem with the botnet golem. Not its stats or conversion rate.

On the distraction side of the botnet, a team of 4 Neinzul Enclaves can also pump out ~16 dones per second, extending the lifetime of important ships. So can hive golems. This side of the botnet is not unique, and not IMO overpowered. The others are, however, limited to a set number per battle, whereas botnets can just keep going and going.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: TechSY730 on July 21, 2012, 07:52:42 AM
The reason I didn't nominate hive golems is, well, because I forget about them until it was too late.  :-[


I would agree with possibly making starships have more of a role in waves. Not sure how to approach that though without having their numbers in a wave computed like the other ships (but possibly with a cap, a higher one than the one now), or something like 6291: New AI Modifier - Exo Wave Like Wave Composition (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6291)
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Kahuna on July 21, 2012, 10:24:29 AM
The reason I didn't nominate hive golems is, well, because I forget about them until it was too late.  :-[


I would agree with possibly making starships have more of a role in waves. Not sure how to approach that though without having their numbers in a wave computed like the other ships (but possibly with a cap, a higher one than the one now), or something like 6291: New AI Modifier - Exo Wave Like Wave Composition (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6291)
I was going to nominate the Hive Golem but later I removed it from my list. They could use a slight nerf though. 2 of them can wipe out an AI home planet almost completely. 1 wasp has 280000 dps. Anyway.. it wouldn't have got many votes so whatever. Maybe in the next poll(s).
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: snelg on July 21, 2012, 10:30:22 AM
Perhaps something like making the botnet golem just tag ships for reclamation by something else would help? But that would still be the same result most of the time I guess. Except it can't work on its own.
Another idea would be to have it automaticaly reclaim all ai ships that die in the current system without having an attack of its own. That way you can still get a lot of ships from it, but you still need to do the work for it.
Perhaps making reclaimed ships take a while to respawn (or be stunned for a while, perhaps invulnerable too during that time?) would make them less of an instant boost?

Just throwing ideas out there.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Hearteater on July 21, 2012, 10:35:10 AM
I knew this discussion was familiar.  For those that want to catch up on what came about last time, try this thread (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,9700.0.html) out.  Botnet discussion comes in toward the end.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Kahuna on July 21, 2012, 10:35:26 AM
Separately, I wanted to make a note about the Hive golem in the midst of of all these 10/10 Games and Botnet-OP-defense...

- Hive Golems have up to 140M burst DPS, which is more powerful than Botnets once you account for overkill. One can be devoted to defense in the same way and defend against a lot of ships in combination with Riot Tazers.

- A lot of the Botnet's resident power is invested in the zombies that it creates. 25 ships per second is nothing. It's all in the 100s of ships that patrol your systems and distract the AI from targeting important things. When I include the Devourer Golem in my games, I would actually go for Hive Golems instead. Once you kill the AI-gravity stuff, that Hive Golem will help you clean house on an AI core planet + incoming Core Raid Engine wave, and leave you space to assault the home planet directly. Botnets can't do that.

- They are functionally similar in the creation of temporary ships that will help you kill things. Hives are hard-countered by gravity and fortresses, just as Botnets are hard-countered by ships it can't shoot. Neither of these situations occur often in wave defense, and on offense gravity is still a lot rarer than things immune to reclamation.

- Yet, we're not complaining at the moment about Hive Golem stats. I guess most people don't like the cookie monster.

Best solution? Botnet Golems are only available when you have the Cookie Monster enabled. :P :P :P

Yay. I'm not the only one who understands this.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 21, 2012, 11:19:50 AM
I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.
This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Cyborg on July 21, 2012, 12:00:34 PM
I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.
This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.

Your second most sensible idea removes part of the fun, though. It's nearly the same reason you play with the Dyson. It's amusing as all get out to see zombies flying around patrolling the place. Makes it feel alive and like you have a faction fighting for you.

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 21, 2012, 12:31:03 PM
I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.
This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.

Your second most sensible idea removes part of the fun, though. It's nearly the same reason you play with the Dyson. It's amusing as all get out to see zombies flying around patrolling the place. Makes it feel alive and like you have a faction fighting for you.

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.
I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Cyborg on July 21, 2012, 01:51:51 PM
If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.
I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.
[/quote]

That's great.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: _K_ on July 21, 2012, 10:49:16 PM
Meh. Making an OP into a special minor faction just because some people love how OP it is...

It would be more logical for all golems to have an equal level of strength and some sort of setting to mess with their stats, bringing them all to the level of the current botnet.

But barring that, I'm in favor of i direct and merciless nerf.

There are so many ways to do it...
Like you could make the botnet deal 0 real damage, instead just "tagging" units for zombification. Or you could make zombies slowly lose health like neinzul, for like 20-30 minutes. Or you could make newly converted zombies spawn stunned for like 30 seconds so they dont immediately deal damage. Or you could go for a simple limit of allied zombie units. Or any combination of these.

The simple DPS nerf, while imo also appropriate, would not solve the root of the problem on its own.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: zoutzakje on July 21, 2012, 11:15:56 PM
Zharmad's idea of putting the devourer together with the botnet actually seems pretty interesting to me. It's true, whenever the devourer is roaming the galaxy, he will eat your entire zombie defense sooner or later. Nobody knows exactly when the cookie monster will come. But we all know he will. Relying only on zombie defense in a game with the cookie monster enabled can be really devastating.
I like a lot of the ideas I just read about. I think I'm fine with a nerf, as long as it's something interesting. A simple DPS nerf won't do the trick.
I wouldn't say no to a seperate scaling for the botnet either though.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Hearteater on July 21, 2012, 11:16:47 PM
Botnet the Faction

It has more health, a lot more health.  Think Armored Golem range, without the 100k armor.  But many fewer attacks, and much shorter range.  It just wades in and makes zombies.  It also cannot be destroyed.  Oh, you can get it killed, it just leaves a deactivated wreck.

Unfortunately, once the player gets it killed, the AI realizes it can be reactivated and begins repairing it as an AI unit.  Better hope you can stop it.  It can, of course, trade hands back and forth.  And don't play with Advanced Hybrids on, because those guys might just realize they can repair the Botnet initially, instead of waiting for the player to show them how it's done.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Martyn van Buren on July 22, 2012, 12:29:55 AM
Yeah botnet + devourer sounds like a very elegant solution to me, although I haven't used a botnet.  Wondering also if it might be worth creating a version of the golems option that gives the AI some kind of specialized golem-killers, maybe patrolling the galaxy a bit like hybrids, but scarcer?  You'd still want them to be super-weapons but the AI would have something it can chase them off with occasionally.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: PokerChen on July 22, 2012, 08:03:20 AM
The botnet + devourer combo was a half-serious suggestion on my part, although it *is* elegant.

Personally, I would prefer to test first whether the zombie following botnet solution, plus a 5~10-shipcap limit, would work. I project it will concentrate the effective FP a lot, especially in the edge cases where you get lucky ambushing a whole lot of Zenith Bombards/Sentinel Frigates, turning the golem cloud into a mobile platform of pain. Or, you end up with 2000 minipods (not so useful on CPU or stopping power). Those edge-cases would be a balance problem. :P

Perhaps a small reduction on the conversion rate would be the first thing to check.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Cyborg on July 22, 2012, 11:36:41 AM
On both sides, the AI and the player, all units are not created equal. Golems, starships, triangles, and the spire are all different levels. The relative nature of things is that some units will be really powerful and a pleasant surprise, and some won't. There are a variety of ways to make the game easier or harder. I do not see the botnet golem to be any more overpowered then someone turning on the fallen spire just for the asteroids to beat up a normal AI.

By making it a faction you can toggle, it's no worse than having the fallen spire. And on the other side, the AI has plenty of ways to be annoying, and always starts on top in this wrestling match.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Kahuna on July 22, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
On both sides, the AI and the player, all units are not created equal. Golems, starships, triangles, and the spire are all different levels. The relative nature of things is that some units will be really powerful and a pleasant surprise, and some won't. There are a variety of ways to make the game easier or harder. I do not see the botnet golem to be any more overpowered then someone turning on the fallen spire just for the asteroids to beat up a normal AI.

By making it a faction you can toggle, it's no worse than having the fallen spire. And on the other side, the AI has plenty of ways to be annoying, and always starts on top in this wrestling match.
Botnet Golem makes Crazy Bomber Crazy Easy. There used to be 3k attacking bombers, but then they took a Botnet Golem in their knees.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: unclean on July 22, 2012, 09:53:45 PM
If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.
I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.
That sounds really cool!

Yeah botnet + devourer sounds like a very elegant solution to me, although I haven't used a botnet.
I don't know, I always have the cookie monster on and it really doesn't cramp the botnet's style that much. I guess it depends on what game setup you're using, but to me the real strength of the botnet is its ability to effortlessly devour three thousand ship waves. The devourer golem really doesn't change that, even if it does eat all your zombies every ten minutes.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Kahuna on July 23, 2012, 02:50:41 AM
Do I have to start a new game after the Botnet Golem is nerfed? Will the Botnets in my current game still be overpowered?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 23, 2012, 11:35:33 AM
Do I have to start a new game after the Botnet Golem is nerfed? Will the Botnets in my current game still be overpowered?
If I do the new faction thing then the faction would not be on in your game but the botnet would still be there.  So yea, the balance change would not affect already-started games.  That doesn't mean you need to restart, but it would have a bearing on the balance implications of a win.  But not every win needs to cause a bug report ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 23, 2012, 11:40:59 AM
Ok, calling the results on this one.

Botnet, as expected, has already grabbed the trophy (after zombifying it) and run off over the horizon.  I'll probably just do the new-faction thing for them and tweak the impact of the medium/hard options for that faction to better fit the botnet.

And second-place was "None of these need a nerf".  I hadn't decided on exactly how to handle votes for that but I think for now I'll just consider that if "None" beats the number of votes of another option, that other option didn't win :)  Or put another way: generally I'll take the top three winners, but I'll stop going down the list if/when I hit "none".
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Hearteater on July 23, 2012, 12:05:15 PM
The Spirecraft Martyr laughs maniacally.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Martyn van Buren on July 23, 2012, 01:25:09 PM
So for next time if we want one thing buffed/nerfed and everything else left alone, we can vote for it and none?
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 23, 2012, 01:33:06 PM
So for next time if we want one thing buffed/nerfed and everything else left alone, we can vote for it and none?
I suppose that would work ;)  The forum poll thing doesn't work so great for "oppose" options; mantis voting does better for it but the forum ones are far more convenient to hold and have a unified discussion etc.
Title: Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)
Post by: Kahuna on July 23, 2012, 03:13:04 PM
Do I have to start a new game after the Botnet Golem is nerfed? Will the Botnets in my current game still be overpowered?
If I do the new faction thing then the faction would not be on in your game but the botnet would still be there.  So yea, the balance change would not affect already-started games.  That doesn't mean you need to restart, but it would have a bearing on the balance implications of a win.  But not every win needs to cause a bug report ;)
Kk. I'll just do some testing and do some random stuff till then  :)