Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: Player-side (I)

[Hearteater]

I knew this discussion was familiar.  For those that want to catch up on what came about last time, try this thread out.  Botnet discussion comes in toward the end.

[Kahuna]

Separately, I wanted to make a note about the Hive golem in the midst of of all these 10/10 Games and Botnet-OP-defense...

- Hive Golems have up to 140M burst DPS, which is more powerful than Botnets once you account for overkill. One can be devoted to defense in the same way and defend against a lot of ships in combination with Riot Tazers.

- A lot of the Botnet's resident power is invested in the zombies that it creates. 25 ships per second is nothing. It's all in the 100s of ships that patrol your systems and distract the AI from targeting important things. When I include the Devourer Golem in my games, I would actually go for Hive Golems instead. Once you kill the AI-gravity stuff, that Hive Golem will help you clean house on an AI core planet + incoming Core Raid Engine wave, and leave you space to assault the home planet directly. Botnets can't do that.

- They are functionally similar in the creation of temporary ships that will help you kill things. Hives are hard-countered by gravity and fortresses, just as Botnets are hard-countered by ships it can't shoot. Neither of these situations occur often in wave defense, and on offense gravity is still a lot rarer than things immune to reclamation.

- Yet, we're not complaining at the moment about Hive Golem stats. I guess most people don't like the cookie monster.

Best solution? Botnet Golems are only available when you have the Cookie Monster enabled.

Yay. I'm not the only one who understands this.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.

This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.

[Cyborg]

I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.

This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.

Your second most sensible idea removes part of the fun, though. It's nearly the same reason you play with the Dyson. It's amusing as all get out to see zombies flying around patrolling the place. Makes it feel alive and like you have a faction fighting for you.

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm of the boat of making the botnet a unique minor faction (one in a match), and tailoring a special challenge to using it.

Those who love it keep it in its goodness, those who don't see those who do jump through hoops to use it.

This approach actually makes the most sense to me right now.

Second most-sensible idea to me is making all the botnet'd zombies follow the botnet instead of going on permanent patrol.

Your second most sensible idea removes part of the fun, though. It's nearly the same reason you play with the Dyson. It's amusing as all get out to see zombies flying around patrolling the place. Makes it feel alive and like you have a faction fighting for you.

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.

I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.

[Cyborg]

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.

I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.
[/quote]

That's great.

[_K_]

Meh. Making an OP into a special minor faction just because some people love how OP it is...

It would be more logical for all golems to have an equal level of strength and some sort of setting to mess with their stats, bringing them all to the level of the current botnet.

But barring that, I'm in favor of i direct and merciless nerf.

There are so many ways to do it...
Like you could make the botnet deal 0 real damage, instead just "tagging" units for zombification. Or you could make zombies slowly lose health like neinzul, for like 20-30 minutes. Or you could make newly converted zombies spawn stunned for like 30 seconds so they dont immediately deal damage. Or you could go for a simple limit of allied zombie units. Or any combination of these.

The simple DPS nerf, while imo also appropriate, would not solve the root of the problem on its own.

[zoutzakje]

Zharmad's idea of putting the devourer together with the botnet actually seems pretty interesting to me. It's true, whenever the devourer is roaming the galaxy, he will eat your entire zombie defense sooner or later. Nobody knows exactly when the cookie monster will come. But we all know he will. Relying only on zombie defense in a game with the cookie monster enabled can be really devastating.
I like a lot of the ideas I just read about. I think I'm fine with a nerf, as long as it's something interesting. A simple DPS nerf won't do the trick.
I wouldn't say no to a seperate scaling for the botnet either though.

[Hearteater]

Botnet the Faction

It has more health, a lot more health.  Think Armored Golem range, without the 100k armor.  But many fewer attacks, and much shorter range.  It just wades in and makes zombies.  It also cannot be destroyed.  Oh, you can get it killed, it just leaves a deactivated wreck.

Unfortunately, once the player gets it killed, the AI realizes it can be reactivated and begins repairing it as an AI unit.  Better hope you can stop it.  It can, of course, trade hands back and forth.  And don't play with Advanced Hybrids on, because those guys might just realize they can repair the Botnet initially, instead of waiting for the player to show them how it's done.

[Martyn van Buren]

Yeah botnet + devourer sounds like a very elegant solution to me, although I haven't used a botnet.  Wondering also if it might be worth creating a version of the golems option that gives the AI some kind of specialized golem-killers, maybe patrolling the galaxy a bit like hybrids, but scarcer?  You'd still want them to be super-weapons but the AI would have something it can chase them off with occasionally.

[PokerChen]

The botnet + devourer combo was a half-serious suggestion on my part, although it *is* elegant.

Personally, I would prefer to test first whether the zombie following botnet solution, plus a 5~10-shipcap limit, would work. I project it will concentrate the effective FP a lot, especially in the edge cases where you get lucky ambushing a whole lot of Zenith Bombards/Sentinel Frigates, turning the golem cloud into a mobile platform of pain. Or, you end up with 2000 minipods (not so useful on CPU or stopping power). Those edge-cases would be a balance problem.

Perhaps a small reduction on the conversion rate would be the first thing to check.

[Cyborg]

On both sides, the AI and the player, all units are not created equal. Golems, starships, triangles, and the spire are all different levels. The relative nature of things is that some units will be really powerful and a pleasant surprise, and some won't. There are a variety of ways to make the game easier or harder. I do not see the botnet golem to be any more overpowered then someone turning on the fallen spire just for the asteroids to beat up a normal AI.

By making it a faction you can toggle, it's no worse than having the fallen spire. And on the other side, the AI has plenty of ways to be annoying, and always starts on top in this wrestling match.

[Kahuna]

On both sides, the AI and the player, all units are not created equal. Golems, starships, triangles, and the spire are all different levels. The relative nature of things is that some units will be really powerful and a pleasant surprise, and some won't. There are a variety of ways to make the game easier or harder. I do not see the botnet golem to be any more overpowered then someone turning on the fallen spire just for the asteroids to beat up a normal AI.

By making it a faction you can toggle, it's no worse than having the fallen spire. And on the other side, the AI has plenty of ways to be annoying, and always starts on top in this wrestling match.

Botnet Golem makes Crazy Bomber Crazy Easy. There used to be 3k attacking bombers, but then they took a Botnet Golem in their knees.

[unclean]

If you have to do a nerf, can you start with something small? This is the best golem in the game.

I'm inclined to just leave it as-is and make it a separate faction with easy/medium/hard and just put 1 somewhere in the galaxy (probably at least 3 hops from any homeworld, if the map makes that possible).  Then medium and hard can be balanced for it separately.

That sounds really cool!

Yeah botnet + devourer sounds like a very elegant solution to me, although I haven't used a botnet.

I don't know, I always have the cookie monster on and it really doesn't cramp the botnet's style that much. I guess it depends on what game setup you're using, but to me the real strength of the botnet is its ability to effortlessly devour three thousand ship waves. The devourer golem really doesn't change that, even if it does eat all your zombies every ten minutes.

[Kahuna]

Do I have to start a new game after the Botnet Golem is nerfed? Will the Botnets in my current game still be overpowered?