Poll

What most needs a buff?

Armored Golem
6 (5.5%)
Bomber Starship
6 (5.5%)
Core Electric Guard Post
2 (1.8%)
Core Missile Guard Post
1 (0.9%)
Decoy Drone
1 (0.9%)
Deflector Drone
1 (0.9%)
Electric Shuttle
3 (2.8%)
Etherjet Tractor
4 (3.7%)
Golemite-AI Golems (they get 1/10th health of normal)
8 (7.3%)
Grenade Launcher
1 (0.9%)
Human Home Forcefield Generator
14 (12.8%)
Infiltrator
7 (6.4%)
Neinzul Enclave Starship (MkIV)
5 (4.6%)
Neinzul Youngling Vulture
2 (1.8%)
Raider
4 (3.7%)
Speed Booster
0 (0%)
Spire Archive
16 (14.7%)
Spirecraft Implosion Artillery
3 (2.8%)
Teleport Raider
5 (4.6%)
Translocator
1 (0.9%)
Zenith Chameleon
1 (0.9%)
Zenith Electric Bomber
1 (0.9%)
Zenith Mirror
0 (0%)
Zenith Polarizers
1 (0.9%)
Zenith Starship / Spire Starship
14 (12.8%)
Zenith Viral Shredder
1 (0.9%)
None of these need a buff! (don't use your other votes, will count by head instead of vote)
1 (0.9%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)  (Read 9958 times)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2012, 11:58:40 am »
I'm not sure about Polarizers anymore
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Zenith_Polarizer

How is their damage calculated? The text is a bit messy
"Polarizer multiplier = sqrt(target_armor) * effective_armor_boost [almost always 1]"
What does that mean? What is "sqrt"?

sqrt = square root

There is however a min and a max multiplier. Can't remember what they are at the moment, but that min multiplier keeps it from performing horridly against very low armor ships, just moderately bad. :P

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2012, 12:05:32 pm »
Just gave zelecs insta-kill immunity for next version, fyi.

How is their damage calculated? The text is a bit messy
"Polarizer multiplier = sqrt(target_armor) * effective_armor_boost [almost always 1]"
What does that mean? What is "sqrt"?
Square root.  In case you were wondering, the "almost always 1" refers to effective_armor_boost, not the overall result of the forumla.  The boost comes into play with armor boosters and planetary armor boosters.

Quote from: TechSY730
]The "AOE damage decay" of the grenade launchers could use a double check, for sure.
What decay?  The explosion radius is 500, and hits just as hard at == 500 as at == 0.

Quote
Not sure about gravity immunity though. I sort of like the fact that very, VERY few fleet ships have gravity immunity. Kieth has stated that the gravity is supposed to be hard to counter with only lower "tier" stuff.
I would never have added gravity immunity, because I thought of it as the defense against which the only counter was "blow the thing up" :)  So I'm not really for expanding it in general.  There's one unit I might give it to for fun, we'll see, but it's not a fleet ship.

Quote
Actually...Kieth, what is the HP balance goal of lowish cap fleet ships?
Historically I've aimed for all mkI fleet ship types to have between 5M (eyebot, teleport raider, etc) and 30M (armor ship) cap-health, regardless of cap.  Average is 15M where I think all the triangle ships are, etc.  A number of the 5Ms have been "promoted" due to widespread dissatisfaction with them, and in general I think I may have been underestimating the problems caused by low health (I'd been thinking that dps was basically 80+% of what made most non-gimmick units important).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2012, 12:06:08 pm »
I'm not sure about Polarizers anymore
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Zenith_Polarizer

How is their damage calculated? The text is a bit messy
"Polarizer multiplier = sqrt(target_armor) * effective_armor_boost [almost always 1]"
What does that mean? What is "sqrt"?

sqrt = square root

There is however a min and a max multiplier. Can't remember what they are at the moment, but that min multiplier keeps it from performing horridly against very low armor ships, just moderately bad. :P
Whaaaat..  :o so "Bomber-Is -- 326K (35x multiplier)" is true.. MarkI Polarizers have 326k dps vs MarkI Bombers :o
So Polarizers are actually very powerful? Vs The Core AI they might be reeally good
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 12:10:51 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2012, 12:12:32 pm »
So Polarizers are actually very powerful?  ???
Polarizers, IREs, and Vultures (the three types with "damage goes up with target [armor|energy|lost-health-percent]") are three of the highest cap-dps fleet ship types in the game, when they can get high multipliers.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Nodor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2012, 12:15:39 pm »
Quote
Actually...Kieth, what is the HP balance goal of lowish cap fleet ships?
Historically I've aimed for all mkI fleet ship types to have between 5M (eyebot, teleport raider, etc) and 30M (armor ship) cap-health, regardless of cap.  Average is 15M where I think all the triangle ships are, etc.  A number of the 5Ms have been "promoted" due to widespread dissatisfaction with them, and in general I think I may have been underestimating the problems caused by low health (I'd been thinking that dps was basically 80+% of what made most non-gimmick units important).

With overwhelming force, where you hit hard enough that there isn't a second round of combat, DPS is the only thing that matters.    If the enemy survives the initial salvo... then survivability matters a lot for sustained DPS.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2012, 12:21:58 pm »
The only reason E.Bombers could get Gravity Immunity is they are Speed 50 (Bombers/Fighters are 76) and low cap so even a wave full of them won't have as many physical units to deal with.  Raptors are speed 316 with Gravity Immunity.  I just think it would be interesting.  Certainly no radar dampening in that case.

Also, if I recall correctly, Polarizers have a x100 cap on their damage multiplier.


Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2012, 12:22:22 pm »
Just gave zelecs insta-kill immunity for next version, fyi.

Thanks. :)
Any chance for similar treatment with other expensive low cap fleet ships, like sentinal frigates, or possibly even sniper fleet ships?

Quote
Quote from: TechSY730
]The "AOE damage decay" of the grenade launchers could use a double check, for sure.
What decay?  The explosion radius is 500, and hits just as hard at == 500 as at == 0.

Hmm, then I wonder why the splash was doing near nothing in the scenario Kahuna gave a picture of above.



Quote
Quote
Actually...Kieth, what is the HP balance goal of lowish cap fleet ships?
Historically I've aimed for all mkI fleet ship types to have between 5M (eyebot, teleport raider, etc) and 30M (armor ship) cap-health, regardless of cap.  Average is 15M where I think all the triangle ships are, etc.  A number of the 5Ms have been "promoted" due to widespread dissatisfaction with them, and in general I think I may have been underestimating the problems caused by low health (I'd been thinking that dps was basically 80+% of what made most non-gimmick units important).

Yea, I'd say that dps is about 50% of what makes a non-gimmick unit important, with the other half to survivability. (Or maybe 40% to DPS, with 40% to survivability, and 20% to speed/maneuverability)
EDIT: Though as Nodor points out, the relative importance of these factors varies wildly with the circumstances.

Actually, this is sort of reminding me of that "very rough estimator of utility" function I proposed a few months back.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2012, 12:27:54 pm »
Quote from: TechSY730
]The "AOE damage decay" of the grenade launchers could use a double check, for sure.
What decay?  The explosion radius is 500, and hits just as hard at == 500 as at == 0.

Hmm, then I wonder why the splash was doing near nothing in the scenario Kahuna gave a picture of above.
That picture was taken before the Grenade Launcher buff (the AoE was increased) but I bet they're still terrible. Probably poor man's Electric Shuttles ::)
EDIT: ..actually.. why not make them "ranged electric shuttles" :o They would shoot a grenade with large AoE (like Electric Shuttles). It could be a bit less powerful than Electric Shuttles AoE cause it's ranged. Or... something like 50% the AoE of Electric Shuttle but 25% better dps?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 12:35:08 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Poll: Worst Unit Of The (time interval) Award (VII)
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2012, 12:45:30 pm »
Any chance for similar treatment with other expensive low cap fleet ships, like sentinal frigates, or possibly even sniper fleet ships?
Sentinels already had it, haven't checked snipers.

Quote
Hmm, then I wonder why the splash was doing near nothing in the scenario Kahuna gave a picture of above.
He was using a mkI with 200 explosion range in an older version.

In general, grenade launchers won't do very well against AI formations that aren't packed pretty dense.  But in just about any heavy combat situation I can think of (i.e. where dps really matters) a 500 radius burst should be fine to hit the max number of targets a grenade is capable of hitting.  For that matter it wouldn't have been all that hard with a 200-radius burst (400 diameter means roughly 20 fighters across at maximum density, iirc).  And if they hit the max number of targets then their cap-dps is pretty high.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk