Poll

Acquiring Target...

AI Hybrid plot scaling (the jump from 3 to 4 especially)
2 (2.4%)
Astro Train
4 (4.9%)
Camouflage (the mechanic)
6 (7.3%)
Core Raid Engine
5 (6.1%)
Core Spire Shield post
0 (0%)
Exo-waves
4 (4.9%)
EyeBot
0 (0%)
Warp Counter attack Posts (do rework)
9 (11%)
Gravity units/structures (all of them)
10 (12.2%)
Heroic AI
3 (3.7%)
Inter-planetary munitions booster
7 (8.5%)
Missile Guard Post
5 (6.1%)
Nemesis fleets (both Defensive and Anti-Champion)
3 (3.7%)
Paralysis (the mechanic)
1 (1.2%)
(non-Core) Raid Engine
0 (0%)
Ravenous Shadow (Nebula scenario)
9 (11%)
Shield bearers
2 (2.4%)
Warp gate guardians
2 (2.4%)
Wrath Lance
4 (4.9%)
Zenith Bombard
1 (1.2%)
Zombie guardian
3 (3.7%)
None of the above need a nerf!
2 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)  (Read 2123 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« on: March 16, 2013, 10:10:04 AM »
Nominations from this thread.  Also look there if you want an explanation of what we're doing here.

So, who gets the bat?  3 votes per person this time, and I'll try to do something with the top 3 results (excluding anything which fails to do better than the "None of the above" option), but probably not more than that because "processing" the results tends to significantly bog down if there's a ton of winners.

This is specifically just for the AI units.  Obviously, nerfing some units will nerf them for both sides, but there's a separate poll from the specifically "nerf this for human usage" nominations.

Thanks for the feedback :)
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Offline Histidine

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 10:35:11 AM »
Three lousy votes? I shouldn't have to ration like this :'(

(ended up going with lance, train and gravy)
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 10:48:58 AM »
Wow, I really didn't need as many on this side of the polls.  Three was plenty.  But I haven't played with a champion or against a Heroic AI so several of them I don't have any experience with.

Offline laughingman

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 11:20:32 AM »
Core Raid Engine, Missile Guard Post, and Inter-Planetary Munitions booster.

I'm not sure what to do with Core Raids, except get rid of them but I know that's not an option. :)

Missile Guard posts could use either a reduction in range or power. They are positively lethal to starships that they get a bonus against.

I'd like the munitions booster to be captureable, or reduce the AIP it incurs.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 11:50:58 AM »
Just to let you guys know, there are already some nerfs coming for the astro trains. Check them out before voting, I guess.
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Post-6.000_Beta

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 11:52:34 AM »
Even though I nominated it, I did not vote for the missile guard post. I'd rather see the new guard posts overall tweaked some before singling one out.

Offline Winge

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 02:30:55 PM »
The Ravenous Shadow definitely needs a nerf.  It is too strong and too fast.  It needs a speed and (damage or HP) reduction.

The Interplanetary Munitions Booster needs a lower AIP penalty.  +20 AIP is the same as taking an entire planet.  I don't see any reason why it couldn't be reduced to +5 - 10 AIP.

I was torn on my last vote.  I don't play with very many options, so I can't say much about Exos, Trains, Nemesis, or anything of that nature.  I considered the Core Spire Shield Guard Post--really, killing any AI shield is extremely time-consuming, especially if there is an Eye in the system.  I settled on Gravity Units.  Gravity is one of those difficult balance mechanics, due to its heavy impact on melee ships and lesser impact on long-range vessels.  My main gripe is with the Gravity Guardian--it's gravity range is a bit too long.  At least Spire Starships are better now--I don't mind getting them to counter gravity as much because they are useful in a fleet once more.
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 03:51:59 PM »
The Ravenous Shadow definitely needs a nerf.  It is too strong and too fast.  It needs a speed and (damage or HP) reduction.

I'd say just bring the speed down. 
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 07:49:47 PM »
The Ravenous Shadow definitely needs a nerf.  It is too strong and too fast.  It needs a speed and (damage or HP) reduction.

I'd say just bring the speed down.
In some ways the mission is just nonsensical.  You're tasked with defending the friendly Enclaves attempting to flee the system, but you have absolutely no way (that I've discovered) of slowing the Devourer down, nor shielding the Enclaves since you'll run out of shields long before he kills them; not to mention that they would only stay in your shield radius for a couple seconds at best.  I don't even really understand point of that part.  The only time Enclaves have ever survived is basically by sheer luck.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2013, 08:36:19 PM »
Okay. Voted Exo-Waves and None of the Above.

I voted None of the above because I look at a lot of the things on the list and go "Yes, that unit annoys me, but I don't consider it OP".

Note this should be taken as 'abstain' on the Champion stuff as I don't play with that on and so can't comment on it.

On exo-waves however, the new starships need to cost the AI more I believe. Their DPS is lower (relatively) but their high-health means they just don't die!

When they have a specific target, such as when part of an exo-wave, that survivability makes them a lot more dangerous then they are in general gameplay.

I also think exo-waves need to be re-worked somehow so that a choke-point is not required to defend against them, but I don't want to just nerf their numbers as their current balance is about right for when you do have a chokepoint. This probably needs its own dedicated thread before anything is done in this direction though, it is a pretty massive change.

I did not vote for gravity units (the current frontrunner) because these fall into the "annoying, but not OP category" for me. Especially now that you can unlock Spire SS which are gravity immune if you are fighting a Gravity Driller AI or something.

Abstain on the Ravenous Shadow (2nd place atm), never played that scenario.

Warp Counterattack (3rd place atm): Did not vote for this because this is basically the AI's only mechanic to get around your defensive chokepoint and is on a 15 minute timer. Does this slow things down while you deal with it? Yes, but I am of the opinion that the AI should be able to get around your defensive chokepoint and I'm actually of the opinion it should have more ways to do so.

My $0.02.

D.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2013, 10:29:34 PM »
I wouldn't say Ravenous Shadow needs a nerf per se; rather, the whole scenario needs a rework.

What I'd do:
  • RS slower; maybe shorter ranged but still longer than anything champion can muster; less DPS so it doesn't maul the champion in seconds (give it a bonus against whatever armortype the enclaves use, or a penalty against Structural (champ FF) if needed). Then make it prioritize the champion whenever it's close enough. The player's job is then to decide when to lure the RS away from the enclaves at the cost of health.
  • Rework how module upgrades work (this probably needs a thread of its own), so the player is guaranteed to always have a module with a multiplier against Ultra-Heavy. At the very least make Missile module unlocked at start.
  • For extra fun (and as an alternative to #2), make the RS spit out enemy enclaves and IMT ships by recycling the ones it kills. This gives the modules that lack a mult against UH something to do.
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Offline Aeson

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2013, 10:55:43 PM »
I tend to agree with Diazo on the Counter-Attack Guard Posts - the AI doesn't have much of anything else that has a chance of bypassing my static defenses, and if I either consolidate my empire behind a chokepoint or two, or regularly clear threat from neighboring gate-raided worlds, it also can't rely on getting a warp guardian somewhere behind my chokepoint. Plus, past a certain point in the game the lower mark versions just aren't a real threat unless they happen to choose a frontline world that also gets a normal wave attack arriving at the same time or I neglect to move some kind of defense to where the attack lands.

As for the Ravenous Shadow - I think the player really needs some way to distract or delay the golems in this scenario. The shields you can spawn barely do anything until the golems start working on the starbases, but with the firepower the golems have the shield isn't really any more than a speed bump. And since the golems are much faster than your champion, if you go out to try to save the enclaves you'll probably be way out of position when the golems start working down the starbases.

Offline onyhow

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2013, 11:27:48 PM »
Missile Guard post...that thing is lethal!

Ravenous Shadow...because Ravenous Shadow. That thing is a nightmare, especially give that it's odd scaling (and 3 champ isn't enough to handle 2 of them at same time...what I played at least)...also need speed reduction...bad.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 12:38:59 AM »
The enclaves in the RS scenario are a secondary objective.  The primary being the bases.  That said, you shouldn't be getting a bunch of freebie enclaves (there is a minor faction for that now ;) ).

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (III)
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2013, 10:10:06 AM »
Ok, it's been about 48 hours since the poll went up, the numbers appear stable, and 32 respondents is within the normal 30-40 range, so calling it with:

Gravity units/structures (all of them) - 10
Warp Counter attack Posts (do rework) - 9
Ravenous Shadow (Nebula scenario) - 9

And I might grant an "honorable mention" for "Inter-planetary munitions booster - 7".  Just a quick nerf to its AIP-cost-to-kill, I think.

Anyway, I've got decent (imo) ideas for how to handle each of these but will probably post follow-up threads on some of them today to get a bit of feedback on the specific solutions.

Thanks for the feedback! :)
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