Poll

Acquiring Target...

AI Eye (producing ships of planet's mark)
17 (17.7%)
Core Raid Engine
1 (1%)
Deep Strike Response (when you're 4+ hops out)
4 (4.2%)
Eyebot
3 (3.1%)
Gravity Drill
7 (7.3%)
Gravity Guardian
4 (4.2%)
Guardians (under forcefields)
7 (7.3%)
Interplanetary Munitions Booster
6 (6.3%)
Laser Guardian
2 (2.1%)
Marauders
6 (6.3%)
Spire Shield Guard Posts
13 (13.5%)
Spire Stealth Battleship
13 (13.5%)
Superfortress
5 (5.2%)
Zombie Guardian
5 (5.2%)
None of these need a nerf! (don't use your other votes, will count by head instead of vote)
3 (3.1%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)  (Read 4594 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« on: July 20, 2012, 01:03:42 PM »
Nominations from this thread.  Also look there if you want an explanation of what we're doing here.

So, who gets the bat?  3 votes per person this time, and I'll try to do something with the top 3 results, but probably not more than that because "processing" the results tends to significantly bog down if there's a ton of winners.

This is specifically just for AI units.  Obviously, nerfing some units will nerf them for both sides, but there's a separate poll from the specifically "nerf this for human usage" and generally-nerf-this nominations.

Thanks for the feedback :)
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2012, 02:03:45 PM »
Oh I'm surprised the AI Eye and the Interplanetary Munitions Booster got so many votes. ???
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 11:52:48 AM by Kahuna »
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Offline Mick

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 02:20:22 PM »
I only voted for the stealth battleship, as that unit seems to be the difference between enjoying the game and getting stomped.

Note: "enjoying the game" doesn't necessarily mean winning.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2012, 02:31:21 PM »
I only voted for 2 things, could not decide on a 3rd vote.

Deep Strike: I like the idea of being able to play around with a mobile fleet many hops away from a friendly world, and with Core Shield Generators added to the game, I am of the opinion that a lot of the reason for the original deep strike mechanic has gone away.

Spire Stealth Battleship: Both cloaking and radar dampening? That's too much. I think the numbers are fine (or close to it) but take away either cloaking or the radar dampening and it should be fine. And taking away one of those mechanics would not cripple it for use in Player hands.

D.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2012, 02:36:08 PM »
Spire Stealth Battleship: Both cloaking and radar dampening? That's too much. I think the numbers are fine (or close to it) but take away either cloaking or the radar dampening and it should be fine. And taking away one of those mechanics would not cripple it for use in Player hands.

Not sure why Spire Stealth Battleship is here instead of the other poll (which is for both player units and "needs a nerf for anyone who uses it" units), but I could support them losing their radar dampening, or at least increasing its dampening range (and thus reducing its effectiveness) by a large amount. They would still be near starship level, stealthy killers, thus living up to their name; but now manageable if they do get revealed.

If that isn't enough to make players not feel cheated if the AI gets them, then my previous suggestion of giving them an additional penalty in AI waves (similar to the one bombers get) may be worthwhile.

BTW, I did not vote for spire stealth battleships. There were other things on that list I felt needed nerfing more.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 02:37:29 PM »
Not sure why Spire Stealth Battleship is here instead of the other poll (which is for both player units and "needs a nerf for anyone who uses it" units)
The nomination I pulled it from was specifically concerned about AI use of it, and thought it was fine for humans.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 03:49:12 PM »
I only voted for the stealth battleship, as that unit seems to be the difference between enjoying the game and getting stomped.
Note: "enjoying the game" doesn't necessarily mean winning.
This is very true. Those things are a PITA.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2012, 11:27:47 AM »
I'm suprised that Spire Shield Guard Posts are doing so well.
Yes, they have really high HP, but not stupid high IMO. And unlike normal forcefields, they don't have an immunity for anti-matter bombs.
OK, I can see a bit of a nerf in HP, but I didn't vote for them because they aren't that bad IMO.


But then again, that is why we have these polls, to try to get something of a consensus rather than a bunch of individual opinions to have to sift through. :)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 11:48:17 AM »
I wasn't really thinking of these polls specifically while doing it, but in the core-guard-post balance pass for 5.046 I roughly halved the core spire shield post; I guess I wasn't the only one who thought this was a good idea ;)  In this case I did it because homeworlds just got a lot more dangerous, and it seemed better to also avoid situations where a single guard post would take that long to kill.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 11:57:39 AM »
Deep strike and stealth battleship are my only two votes. The former shouldn't be punished, as I think it's part of the game. If the AI doesn't like it, they should change their strategy.

And stealth battleships need only a minor tweak to make them legit. I don't want any big changes here, just something that when they are revealed, they stay revealed for some small amount of time, or maybe if they get damaged below a certain amount, or just slow them down a little bit.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 12:35:42 PM »
Deep strike and stealth battleship are my only two votes. The former shouldn't be punished, as I think it's part of the game. If the AI doesn't like it, they should change their strategy.
They did, they started sending ships after them ;)  It could send ships in a more interesting way, I think, but the fact that it realizes the human is doing something that doesn't jive with the "human is not a threat" idea and responds by sending more forces fits pretty well.

Quote
And stealth battleships need only a minor tweak to make them legit. I don't want any big changes here, just something that when they are revealed, they stay revealed for some small amount of time, or maybe if they get damaged below a certain amount, or just slow them down a little bit.
You mean keep them revealed for longer than usual after being tachyon'd?  I can't recall off the top of my head: when a ship fires it doesn't recloak for like 8 seconds after its last shot, is that true when it is tachyon'd?
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 12:42:02 PM »
Quote
And stealth battleships need only a minor tweak to make them legit. I don't want any big changes here, just something that when they are revealed, they stay revealed for some small amount of time, or maybe if they get damaged below a certain amount, or just slow them down a little bit.
You mean keep them revealed for longer than usual after being tachyon'd?  I can't recall off the top of my head: when a ship fires it doesn't recloak for like 8 seconds after its last shot, is that true when it is tachyon'd?

Unless it is the super cloaker AI with the planetary "ultra cloak boosting" (can keep ships that are actively firing cloaked, which not even super cloak boosting can do), I don't think there are any bugs with the decloaked time, even if the initial decloaking source (eg, a tachyon) and the subsequent causes of decloaking (eg, firing) were different, the firing will still properly reset the 8 second cloaking "cooldown" that the tachyon initially set. There may be some bugs there, but I haven't noticed any.

However, part of the problem is that in large waves, some of the SSBs will still slip through, and the AI plays smart with their cloaked ships and tries to keep them cloaked by keeping them from firing (like with stand-down mode) until they reach their target or they are decloaked. This makes SSBs really obnoxious if any slip through your wormhole defenses.

Again, I would suggest nerfing their radar dampening, making them more manageable once they do get revealed. It wouldn't hurt human uses of them too much, but it would make "feel" fairer when the AI uses it.
And my other, more extreme suggestion of giving them a <1 AI usefulness in waves multiplier (thus reducing their numbers in waves) if that wouldn't be enough.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 01:20:49 PM »
Hmm.

AI eyes are no fun?

I do admit I often leave them alone unit a spire destroyer can come to kill it directly.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 01:40:32 PM »
You mean keep them revealed for longer than usual after being tachyon'd?  I can't recall off the top of my head: when a ship fires it doesn't recloak for like 8 seconds after its last shot, is that true when it is tachyon'd?

My experience with them is that as soon as they get out of range of something like the decloaker or anything with tachyon, it disappears very quickly. I end up trying to chase them around, but they are going so fast that I can't play tag fast enough for them to stay revealed. And then they are on top of my command station. I have compensated by putting tachyons near the command station, but the AI is just so much better at microing in and out of power mode that they are really annoying to chase down.

Just slowing them down could be all that's needed. I'm also willing to see if the radar dampening does the job. Either or, one or the other, start out really small.
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Offline barryvm

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Re: Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (I)
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 01:41:44 PM »
I voted stealth battleship but ONLY because of their radar dampening (a lot of HP is fine with me because, hey, they are battleships).
They are very interesting ships to use but they can be very frustrating when the IA has them because even if you detect an incoming wave of battleships with tachyons then you still lose several of your key structures because all your long range stuff can't even harm them before they come closer at which point they will often ignore your ships and go straight for the irreplacable or expensive structures (or worse, cloack again and bide their time).
If the radar dampening where removed (or reduced) you would at least be able to soften them up before they come in range of your beloved advanced factories.