Author Topic: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts  (Read 12006 times)

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« on: May 24, 2015, 10:53:56 pm »
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=16821

Does anyone use the per-planet turrets in any way other than "pile them all up as closely as possible in the right spot"?

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 10:06:41 am »
I replied on Mantis. I love the idea.

Quote from: Pumpkin@Mantis
I totally agree with creating one-planetary-cap turrets (or things like fortresses) to allow more simple defense layout. Also, with my idea of guardians in player's hands, GPosts for humans was also a big idea.

However...
1) while piling turrets is common to me (I barely always do that), it's not such a pain to do so.
2) rather than replacing turrets as they are, adding this sort of one-cap would be better.

I'm planning one more AAR (Outa Tracks MkIII) with heavy use of the ilostit command to grant guardians and GPosts to the player as rewards for some sort of ingame achievements (busting DGLairs and Brutal GPosts).

TL;DR: I love this idea!
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 06:18:38 pm »
The reason is thematic, isn't it? Rather than having monolithic powerful structures, the humans have low-cost easily replaceable automated units. Every guardpost you destroy is an irreplaceable loss for the AI, while a turret is five seconds with the rebuilder.

I'm all for lowering caps in exchange for higher shot output and damage, but there comes a point where you can lose the differentiation that is the heart of AI War.

Also player guardians are called starships so I'm against that, Pumpkin.  ::)

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 07:00:01 pm »
... but the AI already has larger numbers.

I have only rarely actually found myself having more ships in the galaxy than the AI does, and that when I either have already won, or am close to doing so.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 09:12:23 pm »
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=16821

Does anyone use the per-planet turrets in any way other than "pile them all up as closely as possible in the right spot"?
I put turrets on ALL my worlds, at all times.  But on those worlds that aren't immediately threatened, I put much less than a full cap.  Early game, when resources and Energy are still tight, I might have no more than 20 or 30 of a turret on my worlds, even if they are expecting waves.  Related, why resources are tight you can (re)build just a few turrets at a time to get SOME defenses up faster, without waiting for the entire thing to be done.

Sometimes turrets get split up, because I want to protect more than one thing in system - say, both a Command Station and a Fabricator.  Or placed on multiple approach paths to my CS, if the wormholes don't line up nicely.  Or when building a beachhead or an anti-hacking blob, I may want to cover more than one possible spawn point.

I also like the ability to have my turrets scattering fire amongst many different targets, for more efficient killing.  With just one Human Guardpost/SuperTurret, you either lose that or you need to give it lots of shots - and there are already too many things with lots of shots (poor swarmers).

Basically, those are a few quick reasons why I don't like the idea of just one Mega Turret.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 11:20:41 pm »
Why wouldn't you put the CS right next to the fabricator?

Anyway, putting 144 shots on a human guard post that's replacing 48 turrets with 3 shots each doesn't seem like it's making things any worse for swarmers than they already are.

While resources are tight at the beginning of the game, I find that as long as I only do one type of turrets at a time on one planet at a time, things generally go pretty well.

At the 40 minute mark in my current 8/8 game, I have a full set of four types of Mk2 turret on two planets, a full cap of missile turrets on my other two, snipers on another, and some assorted miscellany with my other metal, mostly in the form of 6 nebulas worth of offroad reward starships (Alt Champ Progress, WOO!), four caps of mk1 fleet ships, two starships, a spirecraft siege engine, and a dozen mk2 science vessels.

Maybe I should do an in-progress AAR...

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 08:50:10 am »
Also player guardians are called starships so I'm against that, Pumpkin.  ::)
The thematic issue of this idea have been addressed; solutions are hacking/stealing guardian designs or human starships inspired by AI designs (like the Zenith and Spire starships are inspired by alien ships). Anyway, this is not the topic of this thread.

About the low-cap per-planet turret idea, my main problem is that fortresses, the superfortress and the mini-fortresses are already low-cap (per planet or galaxy) human turrets.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 09:24:22 am »
Until the next balance patch, the Mini-Fortress basically doesn't exist.

Fortresses are only worth getting because of their range and because you can stack them all on your choke.

DPS Comparison: (with bonuses)
MarkMissile Turrets (All)Fortress (1)Fortress (All)K cost (Turret)K cost (Fortress)
15,1848,00040,00003,000
210,36818,66674,6667504,000
315,55233,333100,0001,2505,000
420,735------1,500---
Unlocking Mk1 fortreses costs as much knowledge as unlocking the first four Mk2 turret types, while having slightly less DPS and somewhat less HP, consuming more power, costing more metal, and only being usable on one planet.

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 10:25:49 am »
This Idea is pretty great. It could save a lot of micro time (Seriously, I spend like 20 minutes doing this to all my bottlenecks; http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=448797458 Yes yes, they're under the force-field, i know, noob mistake, the point is that wall of turrets x_x)

Idea, what if the guard post used the module system as a strength-level?

For instance, the base would be 1/4 the power, and each module (up to 3) added would add 1/4 of the overall strength to it. that way, the post counts as 12 turrets energy, metal, and power-wise, and each module also counts as 12, with the same range and DPS.

It could even use the Modular fortress-type Build style.

As for further marks of the post, there should be a ship cap of three of each type of turret module per planet, meaning you could throw down 1 mark 1, 2, 3, and 4, pure posts, or have four mixed with all marks in case one get's destroyed.

Now, obviously, things like tractor turrets, grav turrets, and tach turrets would be left be for strategic placement and the like.

if replacing turrets isn't an alternative, what about having the choice in the beginning settings (Ships settings specifically, next to the complex, normal, and simple ship type settings.) where you can choose if you want turrets or posts? Then  players who really like turret micro can have their turret micro xP

Just some thoughts, sorry for the flood ^^;
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 11:02:07 am »
The flood is fine.

Anyway, Keith has said that modular stuff is supposed to be optional, so that's probably not a viable option:
Quote
one of the basic design goals is that a player playing the normal game should never _have_ to interact with modular stuff

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 11:39:59 am »
The flood is fine.

Anyway, Keith has said that modular stuff is supposed to be optional, so that's probably not a viable option:
Quote
one of the basic design goals is that a player playing the normal game should never _have_ to interact with modular stuff

Aww....
The modular fortresses did it so well too....
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 12:59:23 pm »
I like Modular fortresses too. Especially when I put Insanity Inducers on them.  >D

Anyway, I was imagining you getting one HGP per mark per planet for each of: Needler, Laser, MLRS, Missile, Flak, Lightning, Sniper, and Spider.

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 01:02:55 pm »
I like Modular fortresses too. Especially when I put Insanity Inducers on them.  >D

Anyway, I was imagining you getting one HGP per mark per planet for each of: Needler, Laser, MLRS, Missile, Flak, Lightning, Sniper, and Spider.

that'd be quite inflexible though. Maybe 2 would be a bit more flexible? then you can get a bit more area coverage and be able to split the defense force if you have structures to defend on a bottleneck or multiple projects needing to be defended by an angry Dyson sphere.

Obviously each one would be the equivalent of 24 turrets.
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 01:52:02 pm »
2, to be like Mini-Fortresses, would probably be "close enough"

That said... if I have to split my firepower on my bottleneck, I'm going to seriously consider a different bottleneck. Especially given that Spire Cities can't be split in the first place.

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Per-planet Turrets vs Guard Posts
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 02:19:59 pm »
2, to be like Mini-Fortresses, would probably be "close enough"

That said... if I have to split my firepower on my bottleneck, I'm going to seriously consider a different bottleneck. Especially given that Spire Cities can't be split in the first place.

Sometimes though you end up with either a liability with a solid bottleneck, or a claiming three more planets and risking AI wrath while trying to establish a new foothold (Plus, some maps bottlenecks have to be only in certain points for anything to be safe...)

but yeah, immobile mini-forts of a turret type sounds perfect.
Just that guy who hides behind walls of death hoping that they stay up.