Parasite/Leech Balance Discussion -- Thoughts?

[x4000]

It's perfectly valid not to want Advanced Factories if you're relying more on starships, or you're just unlocking widely-but-not-deeply.  However, not needing them because the parasites are an easier way to get mark IV units... that's trouble.

My gut reaction would be to just make the leeches/parasites unable to reclaim mark IV or V units.  It's simple, it's easy, and it keeps the baseline of parasites/leeches working without letting them be so exploity.  I think it's a good change, thought parasite-lovers will of course complain.

Other suggestions in the past have revolved around not letting parasites/leeches capture above their mark level.  But that also winds up making the mark I leeches/parasites close to useless.  And with only having up through mark III leech starships, it would also have the same effect as my other, less-drastic change above, in most games where the parasite bonus ship class isn't unlocked.

[Wingflier]

Parasites can not capture Mark IV and V units until you have captured an MKIV Factory, simple and easy fix.

[shugyosha]

The problem I have with the first mechanic is that a Leech Mk. IV/V seems far less attractive as it can only Leech Mk. II or less. I find the latter mechanic much better and logical. Leeches Mk. I are therefore useless on the frontline after the initial game as are many other Mk. I ships but they still can defend against low Mk. level patrols and leech back ships the AI leeched from you.

Alternatively Leeches can gain control of higher Mk. units but these are considerably weakened or there is a margin of failure when trying to leech a ship of a higher Mk.

Regardless of the rule you implement Starships don't have to be affected by it.

On a related note: Viral Shredders have the same problem. You leech some with a starship leech and begin to spawn an army that is far better than any unlock you can get by taking planets. In the course of the game you can even run tactical operations just to capture some higher Mk. leeches from the enemy and let them spawn on some harmless targets. It is fun to do so but it feels like cheating to generate over 1000 Shredders just by leeching some.

[x4000]

I should clarify: leech starships are what I see as the core problem here, moreso than parasites themselves.

And having abilities that vary based on what ships you hold is... possible, but not something I'm inclined towards.  It just feels a bit abstract, to the point I worry it will be confusing.  But perhaps I'm overly wary on that one, not sure.

[wyvern83]

I like that parasites/leech starships can grab good units for you as they are now. However I always go for an Advanced Factory so Wingflier's solution would work for me.

My reasoning is that you could say that mkIV and mkV units are so out there tech-wise that you have to capture an Adv. Factory before your parasites could be made effective. If this is chosen my question would then be would I be punished if I lost or abandoned the Adv. Factory after capturing it. (I think we shouldn't and simply capturing it should be enough)

[Sunshine!]

Make parasites melee ships with a slower attack rate (5 seconds or so?) to simulate them being more like boarding action ships, and give them self-damage.  They attach to an enemy ship, start sending their boarding teams through, and eventually they're going to run out of guys to send through.  Since parasites can only reclaim that which they kill IIRC (rather than tagging ships like Leech starships, correct me if I'm wrong), this would make it far harder to sustain a giant reclamation campaign with parasites.

For Leech starships, suggest they generate resources on attack rather than reclaiming.  It has a similar effect - you get money to get more ships, but you still have to build those ships, and those ships have to be things you have already gone through the trouble of unlocking.  Maybe even let it reclaim ships that it itself kills (which will happen rarely, but suggest boost to a few higher damage attacks than its current machine gun spam if these changes are made).  

If a player REALLY wants to reclaim things, they can always deploy mercenary parasites, which perhaps (because of their cost) shouldn't self-damage.

Since I've already brought it up, quick plug on Mercenary ships - drop costs, or give them some nice boost over normal human ships (example above, mercenary parasites don't self damage, beam frigates maybe have 3x attack, etc.)  I never use mercenary ships because they cost so much and die really easily in normal circumstances, and I'd rather not be paying so much for something that's just going to sit around my base.

[x4000]

I'm not going to change parasites quite that fundamentally -- plenty of people would go nuts over that.  Melee attacks would make them impossible to hit certain targets.  And the reason that leech starships exist is so that players can have parasites in every game: it solves the problem of certain players otherwise not wanting to start with ANY bonus ship other than parasites.

[ShadowOTE]

The problem with leech starships is that they are too good. My current favorite strategy doesnt even require unlocking anything above the base level leech. I stick 1 on defense in the middle of a forcefield so it is out of range of bombers and anything that can kill it but can still mark for reclaimation, then make sure that plenty of high tier ships slip through to where it's at. The result is a slew of high tier ships that are without knowledge cost. This is particularly damaging at lower difficulties - I'm playing on 7.6 at the moment, using tier 2 bombers and my tier 1 fleet for offense and the near shipcap tier 2+ of everything else for defense. It's pretty ridiculous, since my only offensive unlocks are mk2 bombers and riot starships.

[Sunshine!]

The things that are immune to blade attacks are generally also immune to reclamation.

Starships and structures, and there are maybe one or two fleet ships that have blade immunity, but parasites don't necessarily have to be given blade attacks, and it's simply reducing their range from 3,700 to 0 (self damage may be a bit much though).

If Leech Starships were changed to not tag things for reclamation, five mk1 leech starships can still function like a fleet of parasites, just without the player being able to reclaim an entire fleet at once simply by tagging each enemy ship with one shot from the Leech.

[Wingflier]

What if Parasites can only capture their level and the level above theirs?  This keeps MKI Parasites useful, while making Parasites marginally more useful as you unlock the higher levels as well.  To capture Core enemy ships you need the MKIV Variant of the Parasite etc.

[ShadowOTE]

Wingflier's suggestion strikes me as being pretty valid. However, it may just mean leech starship upgrades get bumped up the list near the top of the list of "wants" along with the MRS and other generally useful goodies, without solving the core problem - it's cheaper to unlock through leech 4 than to upgrade all your core fleet types to equivalent levels.

[Fleet]

I'm not sure if I'm addressing your particular concern about parasite/leach balance, but the last few games I've played with parasites have been awful energy wise. I eventually build multiple Mk III reactors which shreds drain my economy, and I end up playing for quite some time not even building parasites or using them in battle so I can actually have some energy in reserve.

[Invelios]

Not sure how great this idea is, but what if there was another cap to the amount of ships you could leech if you didn't have that ship unlocked? Say maybe 10% of the regular cap for that ship type? To me, this sounds like it would make parasites still useful and interesting, but without making them rather overpowered.

[ShadowOTE]

I'm not sure if I'm addressing your particular concern about parasite/leach balance, but the last few games I've played with parasites have been awful energy wise. I eventually build multiple Mk III reactors which shreds drain my economy, and I end up playing for quite some time not even building parasites or using them in battle so I can actually have some energy in reserve.

That is very true - until you take enough systems, this can be a major drag on your economy, since you risk brownouts and may have to put them into low power mode (something I've run up against on occasion, especially when the AI caps a few reactors right before a wave hits - ouch!).


The suggestion for a leech cap for non-unlocked ships is a good one - maybe make it 1/3 instead though?

[Yuugi]

I think there was discussion of percentage chances for leeches, but if I recall properly there were issues with that because it'd make the tagging mechanic more complex?

Still, if it was for me, I'd ask for Leeches to only be able to reclaim up to two mark levels above their own, with only 50% success chance for +1 and 25% for +2. (Or 66% and 33%, or whatever seems appropiate, these are just suggestions.)

That way you can still grab all the normally available MK I-III ships with a MK I Leech, albeit with less efficiency, but will require unlocks for the better stuff, and it'll still be a bit more difficult to get significant amounts of IV and V ships captured.


In general, tying the Leeches to Mark levels poses a few questions as to how different marks of Leeches will interact and how they should prioritize targets when they have varied chances of success. Ideally, if you have a mark III and two mark Is on a wormhole, the mark III should try to tag the highlevel stuff while the mark Is keep to mark Is and IIs, or something, assuming those sorts of targets are available.

That might be a relatively complex change to their behavior, I don't know.