Author Topic: Old Versions  (Read 1333 times)

Offline matyasbot

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Old Versions
« on: August 17, 2010, 10:37:14 pm »
I've been following the betas fairly closely and I am incredibly impressed by the amount of effort you guys are putting into this: you've overhauled major parts of the game just since 3.120. Given that, I'm interested in playing some of the old versions just to see how far the game has progressed since then. Would it be possible to download some of the old versions? 2.00, for example.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 10:43:07 pm »
Sure, they're all over the Internet.  We don't publicly archive them here, but you can get back to some of the 1.whatever versions, possibly even back to 0.940, on places like AusGamers and so forth.  Some of them have replaced the older versions with newer ones, but a lot of them just add a new copy.  I do have older versions archived on my computer (and we have every change ever made logged in SVN), but it costs us to put them on our site so I've avoided keeping older stuff around.

Though, actually, come to think of it there is some older stuff:

0.065 (very early alpha, when it was still I think turn-based): http://www.arcengames.com/share/AIWar065.zip

Well, I guess that's it, I looked and the other stuff has been removed.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline triggerman602

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 11:02:29 pm »
That alpha wont even run on my computer. Probably because i have a 64 bit OS.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 11:03:59 pm »
I think the alpha uses MDX, which you might need to install from elsewhere; I don't remember.  It's really really old, though, and was never meant for mass consumption.  That's from when the entire codebase of AI War was less than a month or two old.  Or was it 11 days?  I can't keep it straight any longer.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fleet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 12:07:19 am »
Thank you for providing that version! I can understand about the costs of hosting the extra files, but at the same time I long for the days of my raid/leech starships firing through forcefields to reclaim turrets.

Just throwing this out here: Would something like providing the files to previous versions for specified times (say, to times a year, for a few days) be feasible, or would the cost/effort of this still be high due to  high minimum, startup/investment cost in hosting them in the first place, disregarding any maintenance?

Thank you again for that treasure. I'm sure that if there is a need, someone will figure out an archive solution eventually. The biggest problem I can see is that unless we had at least one time where all the versions were got from you or another site with very detailed repositories, merging them together could take a while..

To end on the most important note: thank you thank you thank you for your community involvement.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 12:35:40 am »
My pleasure, Fleet.  And the main reason I don't upload the betas that were previously publicly out there, is that they are still out there in various places.  Actually, I just remembered that a ton of them are on filefront:

http://www.filefront.com/13816676/AI-War-Setup-1.003/   5/27/09

http://www.filefront.com/13859232/-AI-War-Setup-1.004-V2/   6/5/09

http://www.filefront.com/13882866/AIWarSetup1005.exe   6/10/09

http://www.filefront.com/14556307/AIWarSetup1301.exe/   9/18/09

http://www.filefront.com/15347943/AIWarSetup3000.exe/   1/13/10

So that's not an exhaustive list by any means, but it's everything from filefront.  Others, like AI War 2.0 and such, can be found simply by googling or by searching at our various mirrors' sites, for example.  To be perfectly honest, I would not consider all of the official versions (and especially not all the beta versions) to be archive-worthy.  The big ones, like 1.004, 1.013, 1.201, 1.301, 2.000, 3.000, 3.060, and 3.120, are already around a lot of places, and many of them are up there, too.

If there was a significant need or interest, I could upload some of the others, but I try to keep most of that stuff on third-party sites.  We serve well under 5% of the total downloads of AI War (if even close to that, it might be more like 1%), and we're still pushing out 700 GB per month of downloads, often.  That's a lot of bandwidth and storage, especially when you consider we're doing the minority of the pushing!  Most people get the game directly from a distributor like Steam, Impulse, etc, and then the very few that get it directly from our site generally get it from one of the mirrors (if I can at all help it), so most of our bandwidth use is things like beta patches.

At any rate, much as I appreciate the history of the game and am happy to have people playing the version they want if they enjoy a legacy version, I'm definitely generally looking forwards rather than back. But I understand the nostalgia factor, I've got that for a lot of games myself -- never really thought anyone would have that for anything I created, but there you go, heh.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2010, 12:38:27 am »
At some point I might have to post some of the older alpha versions just for kicks.  For a long while there, the AI was completely different, and there were no wormholes, and for a while it was even a PVP-only game (not by choice, just in the months before I'd added any AI whatsoever to AI War).  It was seven months in alpha, and only four or five people have ever seen any of those versions, which changed at least as much as what happened between 1.0 and 2.0, so that might be fun.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 01:02:01 am »
Interesting stuff here. If I may ask, what prompted the move from turn based to "slow form" RTS? I like both, I'm just curious since you apparently started out with a TBS design.  :)

Offline RCIX

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,808
  • Avatar credit goes to Spookypatrol on League forum
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2010, 02:13:40 am »
I was going to ask this at some point, after 4.0 comes out i want to do a big writeup on the game with screenshots from a savegame started in ai war 1 and carried through the major versions (2 3 and 4)! :)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 02:15:49 am by RCIX »
Avid League player and apparently back from the dead!

If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*

Offline Ozymandiaz

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • King of kings
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2010, 07:27:43 am »
AI war is almost a new game since I got it in January :)
We are the architects of our own existence

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2010, 08:52:35 am »
Interesting stuff here. If I may ask, what prompted the move from turn based to "slow form" RTS? I like both, I'm just curious since you apparently started out with a TBS design.  :)

My god, the worms are coming everywhere out of this can! ;)

Well, this is a really complex question on the surface, actually, because I had an enormous multitude of reasons for making the switch.  Trying to explain this succinctly, though, the shortest answer is that I prefer RTS games in multiplayer, and I wanted this to be a multiplayer game. 

I'd had a bad experience trying to play turn-based Civ IV and one of my teammates just always taking 4x longer than the rest of us, making us wait around (yes, I know there was a turn timer).  But at the same time, Civ IV was the most strategy multiplayer experience I'd ever had.  For years I had thought that our co-op comp stomping sessions in various RTS games were limited in strategy because the AI was bad; that was partly true, but when we started playing pvp SupCom I didn't find it any more strategic.  Lots of tactics, sure, and I love tactical games, but I have a desire more for RTS than RTT, and I lump a lot more games into RTT than most folks (any of these shorter-form games, including Starcraft and similar).

Okay, I'm already going off on huge tangents -- time to dial that back.  So anyway, I went into this knowing that I preferred RTS games, but having the following beliefs that later proved to be false:

1. That I wouldn't be able to program something efficient enough to run over the network in a realtime gaming context.
2. That any AI I coded would bog down a realtime game too much, even from another thread, in the form of network commands or otherwise.
3. That a realtime game inherently couldn't be as strategic as a TBS game because of the nature of it being realtime.
4. That there was no way I'd be able to have galaxy-wide planets simulated in realtime, and that having 10,000 units on the map at once (particularly in C#) would be a huge stretch even for the latest computers.

A lot of this was based on my past experience.  I knew that C# was supposedly 11% slower than C++, which isn't killer, but is significant (since doing AI War, I've begun to question that, though, but that's another tangent).  I also just had not ever seen a realtime game with the strategy that I wanted.  I also had most recently been playing SupCom FA with the sorian AI mod, and the game was running at 1/3 of realtime in that context because of all the extra AI processing, and the cross-threading stuff wasn't working as it should have been in that game (reportedly, and seemingly).  I'd also seen an enormous amount more latency with the largest supcom maps, even when they were unpopulated (but later I realized that was because of all the extra meshes and pathfinding, two things I did without in AI War because of its nature).

God, I told you this was a can of worms question. ;)

Okay, so I'd gone into this with false assumptions, and decided to make AI War a "TBS game in realtime."  Basically, to where you'd get something like 20 movement points every turn, and turns would last 20 seconds no matter what you do.  You could store about 100 move points total, so that there was a bit of give in it before you'd start losing your move points, but it was still meant very much to keep things moving.

The 0.065 alpha up there is from somewhere during my experiments with that style of mechanic, and in practice it was just... not fun.  The planetary areas were large enough that it would take 10ish moves just to get ships from one end of the planet to the other, and there were supposed to be hundreds of planets and thousands of units!?  It was boring and slow, and there was far too much empty space for a TBS game.  And far too much micro inherent in a TBS game to have that many units.

So, at any rate, I decided to take a leap of faith and see what I could do with an RTS game.  I figured that the above factors would make me have to cut back a lot on my planned design, and that fewer units would be the order of the day, etc, but I also figured I could do some tricky things with compound units and "fleets" that were really one big unit group given orders all as one unit, etc.  I figured I could bypass a lot of the larger processing, AI, and networking issues that way if they came up.

Of course, as development progressed, I found I never had to do that, and in fact I kept upping the unit count until in late beta we were routinely having 30,000 units in the late game, and sometimes 50,000 (though it would get pretty laggy there).  Now, of course, even 70,000 is routine, and 150,000 is not unheard of.

The shortest possible answer is that I started with TBS because I thought that's all I'd be able to do while still meeting all my design goals, but I took a leap with the RTS and it worked out.  I do love TBS games, though, and at some point I'd like to do one that is designed more around TBS concepts rather than trying to mesh in so much realtime stuff.

(Whew!)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2010, 08:53:18 am »
I was going to ask this at some point, after 4.0 comes out i want to do a big writeup on the game with screenshots from a savegame started in ai war 1 and carried through the major versions (2 3 and 4)! :)

Wow, that sounds really cool! :)   I look forward to seeing that a lot.

AI war is almost a new game since I got it in January :)

Indeed. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2010, 01:17:44 pm »
Thanks for the history lesson Chris, that was really interesting.  :) Ultimately I think you settled on the best thing for everyone in the case of this particular game, it certainly worked out well from my perspective!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Old Versions
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2010, 04:08:17 pm »
Sure thing!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!