Author Topic: Oh the pain  (Read 1127 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Oh the pain
« on: August 04, 2014, 01:32:40 am »
Just reporting that the latest round of 10/10 buffs did their job. I think it's actually at or at least really close to the intended level now.

That said, I wonder if there's a factor I'm missing here, since no mechanic is supposed to be super-punishing compared to the others:

I got a CPA of 6226 ships at 235 AIP. Playing on ultra-low caps. I'm getting waves in the 1500-range, and I thought a CPA was supposed to be roughly a double wave, though that could be outdated balance. Does the fact that the first AI is a technologist have anything to do with it?

Log:
Code: [Select]
Triggering CPA (always from first AI); Game Time: 6:10:30
effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes = this.AIProgressionLevelEffective = 235
since diff > 9, numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 240 + ( (FInt)120 * ( (FInt)9 - this.AIDifficulty ) ).IntValue = 120
minimumAIPForCPAPurposes = Game.Instance.GameSecond / numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 185
effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes = Max(effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes,minimumAIPForCPAPurposes) = 235
difficultyFactor = ( this.AIDifficulty * this.GetHandicapMultiplier() ) / ( 13 - this.AIDifficulty ) : 3.33
aiTypeFactor = 1
simulateMaxTimeWaveFactor = Mat.One + ( ( this.AIDifficulty * 2 ) / ( ( 14 - this.AIDifficulty ) * 3 ) ) : 2.67
simulateDoubleWaveFactor = 2
simulateDifficultySpecificWaveSizeMultiplier = 12
humanHomeworldCountMultiplier = Mat.One + (FInt)( humanHomeworldCount - 1 ) = 1
numberOfShips (before applying cap-scale) = ( (FInt)effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes * difficultyFactor * aiTypeFactor * simulateMaxTimeWaveFactor * simulateDoubleWaveFactor * simulateDifficultySpecificWaveSizeMultiplier * humanHomeworldCountMultiplier ).IntValue = 50129
numberOfShips (after applying cap-scale) = 6266

Final note: Really? The hunter plot's missile guardians are eligible for CPAs?
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Oh the pain
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2014, 04:00:26 am »
I got a CPA of 6226 ships at 235 AIP. Playing on ultra-low caps. I'm getting waves in the 1500-range
Sounds good.

and I thought a CPA was supposed to be roughly a double wave
Well nope. At least not anymore. The first CPA I got had ~4300 ships while waves had ~1000-1500 ships. Or something like that. The second CPA would probably have something like.. 6500-7500 ships (depending on ship types) even if AIP stayed the same.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: Oh the pain
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 07:04:04 am »
I don't think the AI should empty the galaxy on the second CPA.

Also, Decloakers are worth considerably more than two strength each...
Code: [Select]
** Picked 748 Decloaker @ 1.93 each = 1446.33
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Oh the pain
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 09:41:32 am »
Just reporting that the latest round of 10/10 buffs did their job. I think it's actually at or at least really close to the intended level now.
At Sirius Cybernetics "Destroy Our Customers" isn't our motto.  It's our vision.


Quote
That said, I wonder if there's a factor I'm missing here, since no mechanic is supposed to be super-punishing compared to the others:
That's true, though there are different "tiers" of challenge mechanics.  I.e. I wouldn't balance CPAs vs waves, I'd (loosely) balance CPAs vs exos.  Basically there are the mechanics that are supposed to put pressure on you (waves, etc), and there are the mechanics that are supposed to kill you (cpas, exos, etc).

Are there any exos in this game for comparison?


Quote
I got a CPA of 6226 ships at 235 AIP. Playing on ultra-low caps. I'm getting waves in the 1500-range, and I thought a CPA was supposed to be roughly a double wave, though that could be outdated balance.
It starts from a double max-time wave as a baseline, and cranks up the pain from there.  Specifically, and looking at the logs you helpfully included: given a single-HW with no AIs that buff CPA sizes (I think that's just Chivalric), on Diff 10 it's 3.33 * (double max-time wave).  Since you were encountering 1500-size waves, 3.33 gives right around 5000.  Since you probably didn't see a double-max-time wave of standard-cap (neither high nor low) ships it sounds like it's within a reasonable margin of error.


Quote
Does the fact that the first AI is a technologist have anything to do with it?
Looking at the logs it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the count of ships in the CPA.  Presumably it did increase the pain of many of the ships themselves.


Quote
Final note: Really? The hunter plot's missile guardians are eligible for CPAs?
If it empties everything, it starts drawing from the special forces.  In theory I think it could free the H/Ks themselves ;)


Anyway, I think the main challenge-inflation problem you ran into wasn't the count of ships per se, but the fact that CPAs still go by ship count instead of ship strength.  This is largely due to the legacy behavior of stating the number of ships in the announcement, and not being able to select which ships until the actual CPA launch.  So if it picks primarily stuff with a strength higher than a fighter (or other standard-cap ship) then it's going to hurt a lot worse.  And when it starts throwing in guardians.... ow.

Converting CPAs to strength-based budgeting is on my list but it turned out to be more complex than I wanted to mess with this close to 8.0, so it'll be something for relatively soon after.


The Decloaker's strength value being 1.93 didn't really impact how many it chose for this, but if you have a different suggested value I'm happy to put it in for other purposes (and eventually it will impact CPAs).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: Oh the pain
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 10:04:23 am »
Quote
In theory I think it could free the H/Ks themselves ;)
No, it can't. And I know because it didn't have enough ships to meet the quota (barely) but those five stayed put. Not that it made a difference. And the only guardians it seemed to be allowed to throw were the ones provided by the hunter plot.

Quote
Are there any exos in this game for comparison?
Yeah, I had Golems and Spirecraft at 6. One of them threw a mothership at me the first exo. It was a piece of cake compared to the CPAs. And I really felt the warhead changes, too.

Quote
The Decloaker's strength value being 1.93 didn't really impact how many it chose for this, but if you have a different suggested value I'm happy to put it in for other purposes (and eventually it will impact CPAs).
That wasn't actually related to the CPA discussion. It was in a support-corps supported wave. And the decloaker portion was about twice as dangerous as the rest. Just while we were on the subject of me dying.

I suggest a little more than what a mkIII bomber costs (ultra-low cap), because the best-case dps matches up fairly well, and bombers usually get their bonuses. But the decloaker is faster, doesn't rely on bonuses, and is immune to some important stuff. I think 35 would be a good number.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Oh the pain
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 11:00:33 am »
It was in a support-corps supported wave. And the decloaker portion was about twice as dangerous as the rest. Just while we were on the subject of me dying.

I suggest a little more than what a mkIII bomber costs (ultra-low cap), because the best-case dps matches up fairly well, and bombers usually get their bonuses. But the decloaker is faster, doesn't rely on bonuses, and is immune to some important stuff. I think 35 would be a good number.
This is true. Thanks to Decloakers (and maybe some of the other support ships) Support Corps is more of a Hard AI type rather than an Easy one.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!