Author Topic: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.  (Read 7653 times)

Offline Zeyurn

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2011, 05:32:31 pm »
A universal ship cap system would be interesting but probably really hard to implement right.

The main thing I find is that in multiplayer there's just generally no reason for any of us to pay attention to more than one area at once.  Two players are on offense, one is on defense, and when waves strike we swap that to either one on offense or zero, but we each take individual points and send our whole fleets to them.

So our blobs just move around independently of each other until we're ready for a really hard target, at which point all three of us might go on offense at the same time.

Offline Mithror

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2011, 05:35:01 pm »
It's always really easy to take a long time losing in RTS games. You can also suck and lose really quickly.

You can blow up just the warp gates on adjacent planets to stop warp waves for 5aip instead of 20. In the second midgame phase I usually blow up all but one warp link to concentrate all turrets there, and make sure it is facing the AI HWs in case of blowback. Preemptively attack neighboring planets to clear out buildup without blowing up the command centers so cross planet attacks don't happen. Research raid instead of capture planets you don't need for economy or beachheads.

Usually I end up with a "home cluster" of about 6-10 planets then nomadically fight into AI territory taking planets for beachheads or whatnot as needed and as few as possible. 80 planet map for scale.

Gate Raiding was certainly something we were doing. I'm a bit unclear on the buildup cleaning. We did this on occasions as well, especially in the late game (go autobombs!), but how does it prevent cross planet attacks? How do you defend your beachheads then. Command stations/turrets/forcefields? Or do you also put some ships there?
One of the downsides to having few planets seem to be that you have a very weak economy. How do you compensate for that? We found it already took some time to rebuild our fleet. I can't imagine how slow it must be with fewer income...

I'm definitely going to try a game using this method, just to get a feel for it :)

Carriers are interesting to me.  It's especially interesting to read the complaint that stuff is attacking the carriers when you don't want it to, because my entire experience with carriers is wanting them to die RIGHT NOW so they don't bypass my defenses and the stuff in them is exposed to lightning/flak fire.  Granted my opinion would probably change with the numbers you're experiencing.

I like the proposed change to AI Eyes in part although it's still not really going to stop blobbing because blobbing is really the only relevant strategy beside Raid Starships, even when confronted with an AI Eye.  Especially because AI Eyes are incredibly frustrating in that you bring in a force that does not trigger the AI Eye, kill some of the enemies there just trying to get to where you're going and suddenly you're inundated with enemy troops.  I think AI Eyes need to not trigger in those situations or there's no reason to do anything other than snipe the guard posts with raid starships.  Maybe you should only trigger an AI Eye going off if a new player ship enters the planet and the subsequent ratio is bad?

EDIT:  I want to say I really support what the AI Eyes are trying to do because anything that gets AI War away from 'giant mass of ships attacking other giant mass of ships' is great to me.  I just look at the change and think 'oh that entire planet is going to have to be slowly dealt with by raid starships'.

We had a black hole machine (built it ourselves) on the planet, so we really did NOT want the carriers to die RIGHT NOW ;D

I kinda agree with what you said about the AI Eyes.


Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2011, 05:35:40 pm »
Global Ship Caps do not work.  Every time a game has "blobbing" issues, I love that ppl bring out universal ship caps.  Too easy to exploit and almost impossible to balance.  Eve, AIW, gah, it doesn't work.  

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Offline x4000

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2011, 05:36:10 pm »
So our blobs just move around independently of each other until we're ready for a really hard target, at which point all three of us might go on offense at the same time.

See, but that's not what I consider blobbing.  You've got three different fleets you use in different places, only occasionally combining them together.  That's exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage.  To me, "blobbing" means taking every mobile military ship that you and/or your team can muster, and just flying them all around in one group all the time.  That ain't cool.

Having actual fleets of ships on the other hand: well, this is a game about fleet combat.  I don't expect people to have their stuff in 10 different sub-groups or anything, but having at least 2-3 groups of ships, occasionally a few more or less as the campaign is in different phases, is absolutely great.

And most people play like that: it's the outliers I'm after here.
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Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2011, 05:38:09 pm »
Dang it people, stop posting so fast! 3 posts per minute is excessive, and i will happily contribute to the problem! ;)


Kidding aside, I like the suggestion made earlier that carriers automatically unload to keep a certain force ratio of AI to human ships - it certainly increases the threat of AI stalking!

Offline x4000

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2011, 05:40:48 pm »
Gate Raiding was certainly something we were doing. I'm a bit unclear on the buildup cleaning. We did this on occasions as well, especially in the late game (go autobombs!), but how does it prevent cross planet attacks? How do you defend your beachheads then. Command stations/turrets/forcefields? Or do you also put some ships there?

You can't ever prevent a cross-planet attack, period.  They happen no matter what you do.  What you can prevent is border aggression and carrier buildup, and all you have to do for that is to kill a guard post or two on the planet (or all of them, if you really want to).  

But even that doesn't really have to be done, because if you're expanding one-planet at a time, your surface area is going to be huge, and there's going to be so many AI planets on alert that none of them get so many reinforcements that border aggression or carriers is a huge concern.  Frankly, if one starts building carriers, you can just go and neuter it then, rather than being too proactive about it, as long as your defenses are sufficient.

One of the downsides to having few planets seem to be that you have a very weak economy. How do you compensate for that? We found it already took some time to rebuild our fleet. I can't imagine how slow it must be with fewer income...

That's true, but that's only one way to look at it.  One of the upsides of having few planets is that you don't need a massive economy.  A larger percentage of your ships can be engaged in defending your primary fronts and/or working with your offensive strike group(s).  The compensation is pretty natural, because you don't have to support having defenses spread out on so many fronts all over the place in the galaxy, so long as you can keep the actual "number of planets where the AI can attack me that I care about" pretty low.

Suzera does a really extreme example of what I'm describing, but there are many gradations.

Global Ship Caps do not work.  Every time a game has "blobbing" issues, I love that ppl bring out universal ship caps.  Too easy to exploit and almost impossible to balance.

Don't worry, I know. :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2011, 05:41:58 pm »
I like the suggestion made earlier that carriers automatically unload to keep a certain force ratio of AI to human ships - it certainly increases the threat of AI stalking!

For various reasons, that technically infeasible, though.  I've discussed that in other threads, and it's definitely not happening.  It actually wouldn't make AI stalking that much more dangerous, for reasons I've also discussed in other threads. :)
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2011, 05:42:47 pm »
How viable is a smaller, starship focused force? It would seem to be the antithesis of massive blobs. Although I know this isn't exactly what we're talking about, it's mostly force concentration and not just numbers. But, still, it made me curious. I admit when it comes to upgrades I tend to get tons of regular ship mark upgrades, and only a meager handful of starships. If I flipped it and focused on teching up starships almost exclusively and left my fleet ships at mostly mark I with some II, am I going to even have a fighting chance? It seems like no matter how good a starship is, having a cap of only 5 or so compared to hundreds of fleet ships, they can't be that good.

Offline Mithror

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2011, 05:46:35 pm »
I'd say that generally it's a matter of just taking one planet at a time, not clumps of three.  Gate-raiding, as Suzera says, is meant to be all you need to do in most cases there.  You can do some partial neutering, too, if you want.  Or, in the case of the ARS planets that you don't want to keep, you can always make the choice to abandon them after you get what you need, too.  For something like a fabricator or an advanced factory, doing what you're doing and capturing buffer planets is certainly not a bad idea, though it's not the only thing to do.

Cool, my next game will be one where I'll try to minimize the number of planets I take.

Should be interesting :)

Quote
Don't you think this is a reason you might be missing out on some market potential?

It frustrates me to no end that people assume that AI War has failed to hit its market for some reason.  Our financial difficulties had nothing to do with AI War, in the main.  It's sold better than most other indie strategy games, and especially those that are simpler or easier (the AAA boys have that space locked up tight).

At any rate, even if the financial difficulties had been AI War related: no, I don't think it would have cost us much of anything if it took a long time to lose, and realize you were losing.  For someone to even get to the point of realizing that, they would have had to have already paid us the money to buy the game.  The only way that could have been at all related in that theoretical scenario was if it hurt word of mouth or reviews.  But both have been absolutely stellar: word of mouth is almost universally positive, although small compared to some games; and AI War was the 40th-best-reviewed game of 2009, including all the AAA games.  There were only about 5ish indie games on that list at all, and most of them were not strategy games.

Ow, my remark had NOTHING to do with the recent financial difficulties. Sorry if it came over that way. I was simply suggesting that you'd be able to widen your market potential if the game became a tad more accessible. I know word of mouth is universally positive, heck, I'm even a contributor (also bought tons of gift versions :)), but you should also know that the people who enjoy a niche (dunno, is it niche?) game like this will speak louder then those who don't. Anyway I didn't mean anything bad by it, I just want this game to attrack more people, so I wonder what parts could use improvements to achieve that goal, that's all :)

Anyway, the tutorial tells you to fear the AI Progress and even teaches you about planet hopping, etc, so most players have come out the other side of that being afraid to take anything, moreso than taking too much.  Those that do take a ton of planets usually seem to want a protracted game, and play it for dozens of hours per campaign.  For those who are uncertain, the wiki even has a prominent article in the getting started section with some various recommendations.

I see your point, but I don't think it's correct in a general sense.  There are always outliers to any statement, though, so certainly there must be some people who are playing the game and running into more trouble because they play the game in a completionist fashion and get curbstomped.  There may even be some who then ragequit and don't ever read the manual or try to savescum and figure out what went wrong.  I can't do anything about that.  But, clearly you're not in that sort of group, eh, as you're really enjoying the game despite it getting grindier as you go based on overall too-high-AIP.

You know, when we were playing and saw the Threat of 9k, we might have thinking "Ugh, we're so doomed now", but we tried anyway and we came out the victor. That alone was cool enough. Sure, it felt a bit grindy, but hey, how many times have others been fighting with 4k ships against 9k Mk V ships in a system covered in graviton turret, armor booster and armor inhibitor, eh. It's an experience worth going through ;)

By the way, the reason the AI keeps getting more reinforcements is that the number of planets you control affects the scale of reinforcements even more than AIP does.  For more details, see the Reinforcements section in the wiki.

Yeah, I reread the article and it does make more sense now!

That was long and rambly, addressing points all over the place and out of order, but hopefully it made some kind of sense. ;)

It did ;)

Offline Suzera

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2011, 05:47:55 pm »
Quote from: x4000
See, but that's not what I consider blobbing.  You've got three different fleets you use in different places, only occasionally combining them together.  That's exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage.  To me, "blobbing" means taking every mobile military ship that you and/or your team can muster, and just flying them all around in one group all the time.  That ain't cool

It can work like that on lower difficulties, but as the AI ratchets up it's maximum ships in one spot, the player necessarily must as well. If you could get a way for the AI to not have bigger blobs as difficulty rises, then it could potentially become more time-effective for the player to split since it won't be necessary to have all your fleet in one spot all the time the whole game. Right now that really only happens in a few rare defensive edge cases. Offense is 100% full blob every time in higher difficulties just due to the way the difficulty scaling works.

I think you all misunderstood me about universal ship caps. I didn't mean 500 fighter mk1s or 500 spire starships. I meant that every ship has a "capacity" cost and you can spend knowledge to upgrade it through the game. 50-cap ships on low might have 1 capacity cost, and bomber starships would have 20 or so etc. You would start with 250 capacity so you can build 50 bombers+50 frigates+50 fighters and then some starships, or just 250 bombers and can improve it with research. The knowledge costs would need some rebalancing and stuff though of course. Maybe the capacity could be tied to planet count so by the end you could be running attacks against multiple planets with split fleets instead of requiring your entire fleet to be engaged in every single offensive or defensive battle because you hit near your maximum power so very quickly for the most part in this game.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 05:49:33 pm by Suzera »

Offline Salamander

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2011, 05:48:29 pm »
[* AI Eyes now have 400 million health (same as wormhole guard posts) instead of 6 million, and are now destroyed when the last non-wormhole guard post of the AI on that planet is destroyed.
Well there goes my anti-eye strategy.  :P

I was using EMP warheads and sending in Spire Penetrators to blow eyes up before following them up with a full-fledged attack to take advantage of the post-EMP detonation phase.

I do blob some but I also have run out of fleet numbers as I group by speed as much as possible. Group one is bombers, fighters, etc; group 2 missile frigates and their ilk; group 3 through 8 vary depending on what I get for ships, but one will be long-ranged, 1 teleporters, 1 very fast ships, 1 melee shiops, etc. Group 9 is my utility fleet (MRS, some engineers, mobile builder, cleanup drones, remains rebuilders, and some science ships) that follows the main assaults around. I try to have at least 1 fleet in mobile reserve barring really tough planets like IVs and homeworlds. I also have the various fleets doing different roles on attacks. Group 1 will attack installations while group 2 covers them and (as an example) group 3 will cover the wormhole.

Offline Zeyurn

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2011, 05:58:32 pm »
So our blobs just move around independently of each other until we're ready for a really hard target, at which point all three of us might go on offense at the same time.

See, but that's not what I consider blobbing.  You've got three different fleets you use in different places, only occasionally combining them together.  That's exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage.  To me, "blobbing" means taking every mobile military ship that you and/or your team can muster, and just flying them all around in one group all the time.  That ain't cool.

Having actual fleets of ships on the other hand: well, this is a game about fleet combat.  I don't expect people to have their stuff in 10 different sub-groups or anything, but having at least 2-3 groups of ships, occasionally a few more or less as the campaign is in different phases, is absolutely great.

And most people play like that: it's the outliers I'm after here.

I hadn't really thought about it like that, but that makes sense!  Thanks for all the posts in the topic.


How viable is a smaller, starship focused force? It would seem to be the antithesis of massive blobs. Although I know this isn't exactly what we're talking about, it's mostly force concentration and not just numbers. But, still, it made me curious. I admit when it comes to upgrades I tend to get tons of regular ship mark upgrades, and only a meager handful of starships. If I flipped it and focused on teching up starships almost exclusively and left my fleet ships at mostly mark I with some II, am I going to even have a fighting chance? It seems like no matter how good a starship is, having a cap of only 5 or so compared to hundreds of fleet ships, they can't be that good.

With the stipulation I've only done this in multiplayer it worked VERY well for me on our only attempt at double 10s.  This was before the recent 'AI got teeth' update but our little trio actually managed to make considerable progress in double tens and my little clump of 20ish starships could really turn the tide because I could have Mk 3 riots and Spires very early since the other players' knowledge were going towards other things.  I think it might be a bad plan in single player though.

Offline x4000

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2011, 06:08:17 pm »
Ow, my remark had NOTHING to do with the recent financial difficulties. Sorry if it came over that way.

I gotcha, sorry for misunderstanding.

I was simply suggesting that you'd be able to widen your market potential if the game became a tad more accessible. I know word of mouth is universally positive, heck, I'm even a contributor (also bought tons of gift versions :)), but you should also know that the people who enjoy a niche (dunno, is it niche?) game like this will speak louder then those who don't. Anyway I didn't mean anything bad by it, I just want this game to attrack more people, so I wonder what parts could use improvements to achieve that goal, that's all :)

I think that by the time something like that becomes an issue, we've already lost the players you're thinking of.  The people that are part of that "wider audience" barely make it to the intermediate tutorial, let alone through it, from what I've seen.  Seriously.  It just doesn't appeal to them on any level in most cases: often they don't even try to download the demo.

That's not to say that the game should then be obscure because it might as well be, but what you're referring to is the core hook that gets most people who enjoy the game into it (the whole AI Progress thing, making long-term decisions count, etc, was the thing most praised in reviews and by a lot of players).

Anyway, I see where you're coming from, but I think that what you're describing there is sort of inevitable for a game like this: you can lose slowly if you don't know what you're doing, or stray outside the normal bounds.  Of course, with a game like this you can also recover a situation like that, which is pretty awesome to do, as you noted.  I think the biggest wave of ships I've ever lived through is 13k, and those were mark III, not mark V.  It's definitely a great feeling. 

And note I'm not saying you didn't know what you were doing, as your way of playing is entirely valid: you weren't losing, you were just making it more grindy.  The 9k ships thing was because of the rules changes, not anything you directly did in the course of your game.

Quote from: x4000
See, but that's not what I consider blobbing.  You've got three different fleets you use in different places, only occasionally combining them together.  That's exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage.  To me, "blobbing" means taking every mobile military ship that you and/or your team can muster, and just flying them all around in one group all the time.  That ain't cool

It can work like that on lower difficulties, but as the AI ratchets up it's maximum ships in one spot, the player necessarily must as well. If you could get a way for the AI to not have bigger blobs as difficulty rises, then it could potentially become more time-effective for the player to split since it won't be necessary to have all your fleet in one spot all the time the whole game. Right now that really only happens in a few rare defensive edge cases. Offense is 100% full blob every time in higher difficulties just due to the way the difficulty scaling works.

True, that is something where you have to have your fleet as more of a group on the higher difficulties.  I'm not really sure how to combat that in particular.  I think in those cases it becomes more about anticipating the AI, and moving your fleet accordingly.

I think you all misunderstood me about universal ship caps. I didn't mean 500 fighter mk1s or 500 spire starships. I meant that every ship has a "capacity" cost and you can spend knowledge to upgrade it through the game. 50-cap ships on low might have 1 capacity cost, and bomber starships would have 20 or so etc. You would start with 250 capacity so you can build 50 bombers+50 frigates+50 fighters and then some starships, or just 250 bombers and can improve it with research. The knowledge costs would need some rebalancing and stuff though of course. Maybe the capacity could be tied to planet count so by the end you could be running attacks against multiple planets with split fleets instead of requiring your entire fleet to be engaged in every single offensive or defensive battle because you hit near your maximum power so very quickly for the most part in this game.

I knew that's what you meant, and I also feel it don't work at all.  I've written about it at length in blog posts in the past, but it basically boils down to finding one killer combo of units and just spamming them forevermore.  In every game I've ever played with a global cap like that, there was some sort of killer combo that would work in most cases against the AI. 

Age of Empires III is my most recent example of that: with french, just build musketeers and their best horsemen, and that's all you need to do if your economy is strong enough.  And actually, in many cases you can cut out the horsemen and just spam musketeers.  Occasionally you will also want a siege weapon or to, but that's mostly for trashing the opponent's fortresses and/or towns after you've trashed their military in the open field or on your own walls, etc.  Granted this is against the AI, not against other humans, so I'm sure that wouldn't hold up in PVP.

But I'm wholly against any sort of global ship caps like that, I've just played too many games of the sort and don't find the mechanic to be sound, although there are certain advantages, as with anything.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2011, 07:08:29 pm »
Some planets would have fortresses that require more bombers. Some planets end up with a glut of some ship like bombers that requires a lot of fighters to take down. If you want to raid, just build loads of fighters for a while, go raid, then build a mixed fleet for more crushing when you're blocked by a fortress or a force field. There's lots of times I have thought I would have wanted more of various ship types per situation. With individual caps it's pretty much always just "build everything" though with no thought. I guess this applies mostly just to bombers and fighters though. Bombers because they're needed for pretty much every "special planet thing" and fighters because they're cheap raiders. At least that's a choice between two things instead of one thing though. I could also see a horde of something like etherjets being useful.

If the planets are sufficiently varied, there should be no killer combo. If they aren't varied, then at worst there's only one optimal option in almost every case just like now with the current state of the game.

Edit for another good example:
If there's a shield ninny, I might compose my fleet more of siege starships and bombards instead of the usual bombers/frigates/etc while leaving those out due to them dragging speed down. If sieges starships are a large part of my fleet, then the speed penalty is less of an issue.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:11:00 pm by Suzera »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Of Eyes, Carriers and the Endgame.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2011, 07:25:41 pm »


Global Ship Caps do not work.  Every time a game has "blobbing" issues, I love that ppl bring out universal ship caps.  Too easy to exploit and almost impossible to balance.

Don't worry, I know. :)

yeah, I was more addressing at everyone else than just you.  Global caps _____ has always been the easy and worst way out in games in terms of balancing.  No one has gotten it right so far as I can tell and it just reduces the enjoyment of the game significantly. 

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