Some AI nerfs

[Qatu]

 Hey, I'd like to propose 2 nerfs to the AI after playing again a bunch recently:
1- the first exo attack from golems+spirecraft is too hard. Second is fine but the first one is about a 50% game over chance depending on where they spawn and with what.
2- Plasma eyes. They seem significantly stronger then the other eyes to me and I hack each and every one of them unless I have a leveled champion to solo the planet.

 Another thing that I would eventually like is to make the AI homeworlds less grindy. When I'm guaranteed to win and am looking at 1h-2h to finish off 2 planets with my giant fleet..... I just quit and call the game won. This doesn't matter much to me since by then I've had my fun but would be nice sometime.

 Make sense?

[Draco18s]

You may be interested in this thread.

[chemical_art]

Of the three "hard" options of minor factions, I only found golems to be worth while.

Then it was patched so exo waves intentionally spawn with CPA waves.

Considering, for me, golems offer only moderate benefit with present state HW (The hardest offense action of the game) while in the process increase the hardest defense process of the game (CPA + whatever) I find it simply inefficient to try to use any of the minor factions if they spawn exo-waves.

Which brings up a point I've brought before: Since 5.0 I've used less minor options / expansion features over time, not more.

[Qatu]

 I strongly disagree with you there, i think spirecraft are much more powerful at any time then golems and even fallen spire fleets. It's more of a meta thing though as they arent actually strong, what they do is enable strategies that wouldn't exist otherwise that are very powerful (and annoying to use).

 Attritioners+gravity turrets will kill all medium and high cap fleet ships on defensive chokepoints, martyrs+cloakers take giant chunks out of exo waves, implosions under forcefields melt the high HP threats (but i never use them because their model is so large it's really unfun to try to fit them all under forcefields), jumpships+pausing means i can dump a couple high mark starships right on top of any target 15+ hops from my territory and erase it (works even against enemy homeworlds).

 And remember that no territory needs to be taken to get spirecraft, just bring a protecting fleet, a builder and engineers in bad guy space and take their rocks.

 I do enjoy golems much more though because getting the most out of spirecraft is pretty micro intensive while golems just go in the blob and kick butts. That's the real reason i usually don't play with spirecraft, way too much work, but i have played with them in my recent games. I do hate that golems still need to be turned off to avoid eating resources when not fighting. I hate all the boring micro.

 The problem i'd like addressed with #1 above is that the size of the first exo wave is too big for the toys i've had time to bring online to deal with it, by the second exo it's a challenge but i have enough options for a good fight.

edit: for reference, in my last game i had to reload 3 times for the first exo until i got a beatable one.

 As for the AI homeworlds, I don't find them too hard, I find them not enough fun and too long, so i usually start them, get bored, quit game.

 For #2, no one else finds plasma eyes *much* stronger and harder to deal with then all the other eye types? I'm very thankful for hackers with that option having very low cost, i would probably have simply quit my last game when there was an AI chokepoint with 3 worlds in a row with plasma eyes if i couldnt have hacked them away.

[chemical_art]

I strongly disagree with you there, i think spirecraft are much more powerful at any time then golems and even fallen spire fleets. It's more of a meta thing though as they arent actually strong, what they do is enable strategies that wouldn't exist otherwise that are very powerful (and annoying to use).

Is there a meta? I don't think so.

My meta is that if it doesn't clear AI HW, it is a drag if it makes the game harder till that point. Therefore, all the major exo wave sources sans spire fleets are detrimental, since they add pain for little end game gain.

[Qatu]

 Regular main game meta = make 1 or 2 blobs and roll them over everything for offense or defense
 Spirecraft main game meta = defend chokepoints with spirecrafts and gravity turrets and assault targets with small strike fleets while letting counterattacks crash against chokepoints

 Regular homeworld assault meta = bring fleet to AI homeworld and refleeting between assaults.
 Spirecraft homeworld assault meta = send jumpships with mk3 spire zenith and bomber directly on top of each AI homeworld post and remake those starships between assaults.

 The spirecraft way takes less game time with fewer risks but more real time from more micro.

[Zeyi]

Eh, personally I do enable things because I like to bring on the pain. Although maybe thats why I can only manage 1 or 2 AIWar games every couple of months before I take a short break.

(I have a hell of a lot of fun though, maybe i'm an eMasochist)

[Kahuna]

Yay I'm not the only one who has noticed that exos are overpowered.
Also.. Spirecraft are much better at clearing AI HWs and stopping exos.

[Tridus]

Plasma Eyes are nasty, but I don't find the particularly awful if you have some Starship unlocks. They are worse than some of the other eyes, but that's okay.

As for the exos... yeah, some of them really are more painful than the benefit right now. That's one nice thing about how Fallen Spire works - the exos scale up along with your benefit. So there's no "well I havne't found anything uber yet, so I have no real benefit to use against this exo."

[Histidine]

Plasma Eyes can ultimately be dealt with in the same way as the other eyes, but if you get caught with an active eye (e.g. you manage to cross the 2:1 threshold while clearing a system), Plasma is uniquely ridiculous.

Every other eye uses a negative feedback mechanism, and/or has significant limitations that make it manageable:

• Sentry: Negative feedback
• Ion: Only works against ships susceptible to insta-kill; negative feedback
• Parasite: Only works against ships susceptible to reclamation; negative feedback
• Raid: 15 second delay
• Threatening: 5 second delay; not directly dangerous
• Translocating: Limited range - won't kill you if you leave it alone
• Nuclear: 30 second delay
  
  
• Plasma: Wtfomgs your entire fleet from across the gravity well with its 6 million DPS (+ AoE/siege effect!) Plus the shots are so damn slow that by the time the eye stops shooting (due to half your fleet being dead), enough shots are in flight to kill the other half twice over.

To bring it in line with the other eyes, it could simply take a big time DPS nerf.

[Chthon]

Plasma Eyes along with Raid Eyes are prime targets for sabotage IMO.

[Qatu]

 Hummm yeah thats what was said earlier in the thread, unless have high level raid ships or high level champion or it's an easy layout, it's usually better to hack it. The point of the conversation is to bring the threat level to similar levels as other eyes as presently it's one of the most dangerous enemy in the game.

 Funnily enough, one of the effective counters seems to be lightning torpedoes launchers since the eye shoots at the torpedoes :O

 But really it seems like putting protector starships in the blob is a complete hard counter but otherwise for me it's hacking or raid ships or champion. The AoE damage is just waaaayyyy too high with engine damage too argggghhhhh!!!!

[Chthon]

Sure, protector starships are a hard counter until they run out of ammo, then you start losing ships.

[sk_2013]

I've found that Lightning Torpedo Frigates will save me more losses than Protector Starships, typically. The problem with the Protector is a limited ammo capacity and limited combat utility. AI static defenses prioritize the Lightning Torpedoes, allowing you to focus on other issues. I've used them to deal with AI Forts to great effect. If the AI doesn't focus on the torpedoes, I just wittle the health down whilst keeping my fleet out of range.