Author Topic: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)  (Read 12443 times)

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2012, 06:38:10 pm »
*Nomination: Drone bays for the champion

These things look neat but in practice they're at best decoy launchers, at worst feeding troughs for viral ships. While they can build up a decent damage output if they get to deploy the maximum number of drones they rarely ever manage that because those drones get shot to pieces really fast. The fighter and bomber drones get one shot off, the melee drones don't get even that (plus the melee drones aren't even faster than the champion, i.e. in nebulas they are slower than any enemy).
I've never been a fan of drones. They have a larger maximal in dps, but are so fragile in practice they act more like decoys unless carefully microed.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline LordSloth

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2012, 06:39:59 pm »
I personally find Cutlasses very, very effective, just that they don't work well for me in fleet combat.

Immune to tractor beams, forcefields, they're great at raiding systems. While their multipliers are not ideal for this purpose (light, neutron, composite x4 and command grade x0.01), they have an incredible ship cap DPS of 4x that of bombers. On top of that, their resource/cap cost is about a seventh of those same bombers. And assuming you have an Advanced Factory you can toss out a new mark iv cutlass in a few seconds as compared to over a minute for bombers.

In other words, they kill guard posts and you don't even worry about affording the cost of a refleet. And then a gravity guardian comes along or an eye and you regret everything.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2012, 06:53:32 pm »
On drones: with shield cover, you can get maximum dps on the bomber and interceptor drones.  For the slicers it's a bit trickier.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2012, 06:57:07 pm »
On drones: with shield cover, you can get maximum dps on the bomber and interceptor drones.  For the slicers it's a bit trickier.

As I said, if you micro your 400+ shadow charge so your drones stay under your shields, then maybe, maybe, they might shine.  ;)
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Winge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2012, 07:46:44 pm »
Ships are in order from the worth to the... "least worst"? (kinda)
Turrets (Remove the 0,1 damage multiplier vs Commander Grade)
Ultra-Light and Swarmer ships
Teleport Raider (By far the most useless ship in the game. It can't fight nor raid. And DTs, CPs and Raid Engines are immune to Minor Electric)
Deflector Drone
Infiltrator
Electric Shuttle
Raptor (Expensive and doesn't do anything)
Neinzul Youngling Commando
Raider
Zenith Electric Bomber
Anti-Armor Ship (What is that?! It's a mosquito!.. No! It's a fly!.. NO! It's a PAPER PLANE!)
Spire Teleporting Leech (Halve the price omg a cap of these costs almost as much as a cap of starships)
Flagship
Teleport Battle Station

Zenith Trader (Too expensive)

UPDATED!

I agree that most of these are underpowered, although I couldn't consider them all 'worst'.  I think Raptors are decent ships: they have stealth, good range, and immunity to gravity--just watch for missile frigates!  They don't blob very well, but they are insane kiters, decent stealth raiders, and great "human special forces" ships.  I consider turrets to be very good, but I agree that the Command-Grade multiplier needs to be increased to at least 0.5.

Here is my list for the worst:
*Nomination*  Tachyon Drone (I mean, really?  I can barely detect a wormhole minefield with that!  It needs at least 3/4 of a Scout Starship's detection range, and should probably have a cap and speed increase too.  If necessary, increase the cost a little, but it really needs those to be useful for anything but a poor man's Tachyon Turret)
*Nomination*  Translocater (maybe make it work like the new Military Command Station...)
*Nomination*  Decoy Drone
*Nomination*  Spire Gravity Rippers
*Nomination*  Infiltrators (I picked these as a bonus ship once, thinking the FF immunity would be nice.  I haven't done so again, and I would probably hack an ARS just to avoid getting them).

I could probably think of more if I wasn't addicted to XCOM: Enemy Unknown at the moment  :P
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2012, 10:02:31 pm »
*Nomination: Infiltrator

Infiltrator

*Nomination*  Infiltrators (I picked these as a bonus ship once, thinking the FF immunity would be nice.  I haven't done so again, and I would probably hack an ARS just to avoid getting them).

Infiltrators have actually been nominated in every single "Worst Unit" poll, but somehow never got chosen by the poll.  Three nominations already here.

Maybe this time, the poor little fellers'll get picked.

Offline Histidine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2012, 01:48:11 am »
I like champ drones (especially bombers which get multipliers against nebula cruisers and starbases). Enemy shooting them? Good, it means they're not shooting at me.
But with the in-nebula repair this functionality is probably a lot less useful than it used to be.

I'd like to see some empirical performance testing in common nebula scenarios - a champion with a drone loadout vs. a champion with comparable regular modules, e.g. bomber vs. missile.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 01:49:51 am by Histidine »

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2012, 02:03:03 am »
The champ without drones will take more damage in the same time frame. Both champs preform well though.

Drones have the advantage of being a form of crowd control that you don't have a lot of control over ( aside form ctrl+,). Missiles you can pick and choose your targets.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2012, 04:20:51 am »
One more (though I will probably think of more)

*Nomination: Spire Gravity Ripper
  Their effect is actually really nifty, but their low cap, and their only one shot per salvo, means they won't be slowing very much down at all. I think just something like 1/3x per bullet damage but giving them 3x bullets per salvo will fix that.
I'm testing Gravity Rippers vs 10 diff atm and so far I like them. Not because of their gravity effect but because they're very durable, they have a pretty good DPS and they're cost efficient. I chose a map where I can use an Advanced Factory reliably. Can't wait to get MarkIVs of these beasts.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2012, 04:26:16 am »
How much damage do those drones really tank though and do they really make up for not having a shield module in that bay? A shadow destroyer already has health on par with a cursed golem. Also it seems like the AI has ion cannons in about 2/3rds of its systems which make it completely impossible to get a number of drones up as they bypass the shadow FF.

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2012, 04:57:22 am »
How much damage do those drones really tank though and do they really make up for not having a shield module in that bay? A shadow destroyer already has health on par with a cursed golem. Also it seems like the AI has ion cannons in about 2/3rds of its systems which make it completely impossible to get a number of drones up as they bypass the shadow FF.

I run drone set ups on Zenith hulls. I usually run 3 bays and a shield on the destroyer. You can have up to 10 drones out per bay. You get a new drone from each bay every couple seconds. Even the Ion Eye can't kill all the drones so you can pretty much get a salvo or two off from each one. In a crowd your light modules will do most of the work. Drones will act as fodder (still getting in some damage). Plus drones have the best attack range out of all the champions modules.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2012, 05:14:38 am »
Plus drones have the best attack range out of all the champions modules.

I guess I don't get to see that because every single time that I play with a champion the AI rolls spire gravity drains.

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2012, 06:18:44 am »
Plus drones have the best attack range out of all the champions modules.

I guess I don't get to see that because every single time that I play with a champion the AI rolls spire gravity drains.

Eeeshhh...
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2012, 06:49:22 am »
How much damage do those drones really tank though and do they really make up for not having a shield module in that bay? A shadow destroyer already has health on par with a cursed golem. Also it seems like the AI has ion cannons in about 2/3rds of its systems which make it completely impossible to get a number of drones up as they bypass the shadow FF.

I run drone set ups on Zenith hulls. I usually run 3 bays and a shield on the destroyer. You can have up to 10 drones out per bay. You get a new drone from each bay every couple seconds. Even the Ion Eye can't kill all the drones so you can pretty much get a salvo or two off from each one. In a crowd your light modules will do most of the work. Drones will act as fodder (still getting in some damage). Plus drones have the best attack range out of all the champions modules.
Ion cannons are 4 shots every 4 seconds.  Drones spawn 1 per 2 seconds per bay, IIRC.  3 bays = 3 per 2 seconds, or 6 per 4 seconds.  Of which, 4 die instantly during those 4 seconds.  It's very limiting.

Slicers are too slow in the nebula.  They also cause the Champion to do the 'Can't stand still disco' by continually pushing it out of the way, frequently moving it right out from under a shield.
Drones do not inherit the Champion's targeting info.  This means that you need to micro, ever 2 seconds, to re-target the drones.  That's a lot of micro!
Drones die to anything.  Base 11,000 health.  Multishot ships shut them down, hard.  In the nebula, for example, the Intimidator pops them at 16 per volley (every 4 seconds).  4 dead drones per second?  That means it takes 9 bays to be able to get a single drone to attack an Intimidator.  That's a lot of dead drones.
Drones have the best range, but every time you extend the range by 2 seconds travel time, your damage drops by 10%.  For slicers, this can be a real problem.  For bomber drones, 2 seconds travel is about 4,000 distance?  Half their range.
Damage is comperable to the other Heavy Modules - if, and only if, all 10 drones are alive and attacking.  That means they need to spawn within range of their targets, and never need to chase.  Slicers? Again, problems.

I like the drones, and use them a fair amount (usually with the Neinzul hull line.  Nothing like stealthed carriers!).  But I think they could use some tweaking. 
Significantly higher health would solve the 'dies in a breeze' problem, which means more drones living to attack, which helps fix damage degredation issue.
Extending the self-attrition time (and correspondingly lowering the firing rate or spawn rate) would help fix the range issues (especially on the slicer drones).

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (VIII)
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2012, 07:11:34 am »
In the nebula, if that Intimidator is focused on your drones then it is not focused on your allies OR your champ. I can get much bigger fleet balls in nebula with drones than I can without. Not to mention that there aren't that many ships like the Intimidator across all the factions.

Take Bombers for example. 1 drone will get 4 shots off in its lifetime. That is it. You get 1 drone every 2 seconds. That's 10 per bay. In a close quarter situation where they die as they spawn, you can pretty much get one shot of per bomber every 2 seconds (think that's right anyway).

A slicer drone has the best damage out of any drones. You only really need it to be on target 7 or 8 seconds max.

Also light modules. In the nebula you should be pretty much in the fight anyway. Your drones will provide damage and tank some. They are just a piece of the puzzle, not the solution.

Outside of the nebula, Neinzul hulls with IIM and Bomber bays. Don't need much else.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.