Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (IX)

[keith.lamothe]

Time to get the boulder rolling back down the hill again

So: what most needs a buff?  Anything human-usable or AI-usable is fair-game this time around, though the poll will probably only have 2-3 votes per person.  I'm not planning to do a "what to nerf?" poll alongside this, will probably do that separately another time.

For reference, previous winners (in the sense that they got buffs as a result) :
I - Vorticular Cutlass
II - Acid Sprayer
III - IRE, Space Plane, Vampire Claw
IV - Harvester Exo-Shield, Harvester, Warp Jammer Command Station, Mobile Repair Station
V - Neinzul Enclave Starship (buffs, can now build drones), Armored Warhead, Manufactories, Teleport Battlestation, Riot MkIII (new modules)
VI - Zenith Reserve, Decloaker, Captive Human Settlement, Spire Armor Rotter
VII - Spire Archive, Human Home Forcefield Generator, Zenith/Spire Starships
VIII - Teleport Raider, Infiltrator, Superfortress, Zenith Power Generator, Champion Drone Bays


To make it less likely I'll miss your nomination while reading a bunch of posts, please put each nomination on its own line with the string "*Nomination:" in front of it (no double-quotes), so for example, here's two of my nominations (for real, actually) :

*Nomination: Zenith Reprocessor
*Nomination: Spire Gravity Ripper

And feel perfectly free to include as much discussion/explanation of these as you like, just separate from those lines so I don't miss them.

Sorry if it feels like a silly format; it kind of is   But I think in most of these polls I've missed at least one nomination and/or munged it into something else when trying to distill paragraphs of info into poll choices.

[Faulty Logic]

*Nomination: Regenerator Golem
*Nomination: Zenith/Spire Starships
*Nomination: Spirecraft Siege Tower
*Nomination: AI guard posts (not the HW ones)
*Nomination: Snipers (the fleetship)
*Nomination: Neinzul Enclave IV

The regen golem is the most expensive (mce, and AIP if on moderate) and least useful of the golems. It has its uses, but they are few, especially since it is usually cheaper to simply rebuild the fleet at normal constructors. Reduce their cost and increase their health.

Zenith and Spire starships used to be the best ships in the human fleet, able to neuter mkIII AI worlds with no casualties. Now they don't have anywhere near the utility, even at mksI-III. Quadruple health and attack, but quarter ship cap.

The siege tower description reads that it can both give and recieve a beating. Niether are true, except at mkIV-V, and then I always have better uses for the asteriods. Buff health/attack.

Most guardposts are utterly ignorable. Buff them to Starship-level firepower/health.

Snipers: Bring back their ff immunity, but add a 0 multiplier to command-grade and structural.

14,000 k? Split into two techs, mkIV and V, costing 3 and 11 k. The first should build mkIV drones, and mkIV fleetships only if you have a FactIV somewhere. The mkV acts as the current mkIV. Again, 14 thousand knowledge?

[keith.lamothe]

14,000 k? Split into two techs, mkIV and V, costing 3 and 11 k. The first should build mkIV drones, and mkIV fleetships only if you have a FactIV somewhere. The mkV acts as the current mkIV. Again, 14 thousand knowledge?

Making the IV's capacity to build mkIV fleet ships conditional would be pretty nasty implementation-wise, which is why I haven't done that.  Other than that, it's a sensible solution.

[Faulty Logic]

Making the IV's capacity to build mkIV fleet ships conditional would be pretty nasty implementation-wise, which is why I haven't done that.  Other than that, it's a sensible solution.

Hmm, I'd be pretty happy with just an increased construction rate relative to mkIIIs, and the ability to produce drones.

[Winge]

*Nomination: Spire Starship (need to be tougher)
*Nomination: Tachyon Drones (increase cap)
*Nomination: Tachyon Microfighters (tachyon range is almost useless, basically just a double-cap fighter)
*Nomination: Spire Gravity Ripper (needs no explanation...except perhaps how did I almost miss that one?)

There are a lot of ships (Snipers, Etherjets, Mirrors, etc) that are relatively weak in the hands of the player, but are very annoying in the hands of the AI--I'd be very leery of buffing them.  I'm also wondering about some units like the Armor Ship--I can't help but think that the armor system could use a rework first  .  Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse...

[LaughingThesaurus]

I mean couldn't it be as simple as if one allied Factory IV is alive then unlock mk IV tech? Or, do you suppose it would have to be only for the player that owns the factory?
I mean I don't really know anything about coding anything at all, but I end up at least contributing to other ways of approaching problems.
Also I don't know anything about balance but I definitely agree with guard posts just because they melt in like half a second. I do recall even on 7/7s just being able to split up my fleet and right click on each individual guard post and then I just wait for the post to die... and the worst part is that the travel time takes longer than the kill unless there are force fields involved, so it's not even as if it's a good fight to really watch. Maybe I'm too much a fan of low AIP, but guard posts could certainly be more thrilling to deal with.

(also I say "even on 7/7" because I'm bad at strategy-ing)

[Dichotomy]

*Nomination: Decoy Drones
*Nomination: Missile Silo

Decoy Drones: do I even have to explain?

Nukes/emps are practically useless in the face of carrier immunity. Armored/Lightning warheads are inferior to the AIP-free martyrs. Tachyon warheads are obsolete if you have a champion. Buff these, maybe add new warheads.

[Lancefighter]

14,000 k? Split into two techs, mkIV and V, costing 3 and 11 k. The first should build mkIV drones, and mkIV fleetships only if you have a FactIV somewhere. The mkV acts as the current mkIV. Again, 14 thousand knowledge?

Making the IV's capacity to build mkIV fleet ships conditional would be pretty nasty implementation-wise, which is why I haven't done that.  Other than that, it's a sensible solution.

what about making it act as a warp gate with 0 warpin delay? Really ugly workaround (and honestly not sure if ti would do anything), but it would accomplish *mostly* the same thing. (alternatively, can you tie advanced facts to unlocking the technologies required for mk4 construction, do it that way? is it even possible to "lose" a technology? Do we want to enable people who have captured a mk4 fact but lost it the ability to build mk4 ships without one, but not make the mk4 enclave otherwise too powerful? Am i even being useful here, or just saying words?)

Honestly, I havent played the game enough lately to warrant making suggestions of my own.

[Faulty Logic]

Decoy Drones   Missile Silo

How could I have missed those?

but I end up at least contributing to other ways of approaching problems.

I simply believed Keith when he said it was tricky 

[LintMan]

*Nomination: Hardened Force Field Generator

OK, everything non-armour piercing only does 20% damage to the hardened FF, but the hardened FF only has 25% of the health of a regular FF.  This works out to a 20% bonus for the hardened FF against all non-AP weapons.  BUT... against AP enemies, it effectively takes a 400% damage penalty.  Given that risk, and the extra 1K cost to unlock the Mk 1 version, it seems hardly worth it.


*Nomination: Tachyon Drone (seconded)

Planets have such a large area, but these have such a tiny radius thet they're not really worth building.  Given a choice of just 1, I'd prefer seeing them get a larger detection radius over a larger cap size.


*Nomination: Spirecraft Siege Tower (seconded)

I like these in theory, but I've found them less useful in practice, mainly because they're so darn slow and/or short-ranged (compared to the implosion artillery, ion blaster, or penetrator).  They always feel late to the party: Their immunity to speed boosts makes them the slowpokes of the fleet when on your own planets or if you have speed boosters.  I'd like to see them either powered up enough to make their punch and staying power worth waiting for them to arrive, or to have them sped up to ion blaster or at least implosion artillery speed.

*Nomination: Decoy Drones

Decoy Drones: do I even have to explain?

I recall playing against an Experimentalist AI and getting attacked with fleets with dozens of those things mixed in, and it was nightmarish.  I think this ship is a lot more powerful in the AI hands, so buff with caution.

[Vacuity]

Well goodness knows I'm not very experienced and can't comment on that many things, but I do have a couple of opinions about what's here:

*Nomination: Spire Gravity Ripper (Seconded).

Either a small speed boost or a power boost would probably be sufficient.  As it is, they take too long to close the gap to firing range: a speed boost would reduce this, a power boost would mean that when they do eventually close, they'll actually cause a bit more damage before they expire.

Possible-Non-Nomination: Spirecraft Siege Tower.

I'm not entirely sure about this being nominated as they can be fantastically useful in some circumstances.  On a planet with a gravity drill, they'll clean the planet step-by-step while all your other ships are crawling away from the wormhole.  Against gravity drains, they can also save you a lot of pain.  If I was up against a Gravity Driller AI, these would be about the top of my list to build.  On the other hand, their description makes them sound very tough, and they're not, so it might make sense to make them hardier for general fleet actions?

*Nomination: AI guard posts (Seconded).

Some of them, the counterattack guard post for example, work just fine.  Some are a definite nuisance, like the missile guard post.  A lot of the others are just things to roll over once the enemy ships are dispersed.

*Nomination: Decoy Drones (seconded).

I don't know what it's like to fight against them, but they seem so fiddly for a human to make good use of that they're not really worth the time and resources spent building; you'd be better off saving the resources and micro-managing other things in your fleet.

Well, I'm not sure how much my opinions count anyway as I'm pretty inexperienced.

[TechSY730]

*Nomination: AI Guard Posts
Seconded

I agree with many of the previous nominations, but I won't bother renominating those

*Nomination: Implosion Artillery
very low marks only, higher marks are borderline OP. Granted, the entire spirecraft class of stuff needs a good balance review.
*Nomination: Deflector drone
there isn't enough laser based weaponry for its gimmick to really be useful. Maybe expand the list that its thing is good against to most forms of "electromagnetic based" weaponry?
*Nomination: Zenith Starship
Pretty sad HP for what is supposed to be the most durable of the starship lines. I wouldn't even mind if it lost a bit of DPS in return

I actually think the spire starship is in a decent place right now. Sure its fragile, but in its old, old balance (when it was part of the fleet ship line BEFORE the linearlization of it), it was still fragile for a Mk. IV starship, but it didn't feel like it because there wasn't many other Mk. IV starships around to compare it to. It's DPS is crazy, and I regularly see it rack up the kills like crazy even without micro.

*Nomination: AI Hybrids
...sortof...I'd like to see individual hybrids get stronger, but reduce their spawn rate accordingly. Also, it would be nice to see hybrids that are defending do more, which includes finding out why "Defensive hybrids are mobilizing" seems to do a bunch of nothing often times.

*Nomination: AI Advanced Hybrids
The Dyson plot thing is cool and all, but it would be nice to see advanced hybrids do more. Possibly other "plots", and actions when not progressing in a plot (aiding defense or whatever). Plus, make their stats more "super"

*Nomination: AI Mothership
No, this is not a joke.
Right now, it is tied for first place for most HP, (SPOILERS) tied with the fallen Spire "exo galactic final push" versions of the Spire Super-dreadnought (/SPOILERS).
Buff up its HP so it can reclaim its "rightful" place as the singular most durable ship.
Also, can you please find some way to allow it to spawn during the (SPOILERS)fallen Spire "final push"(/SPOILERS)

[Diazo]

*Nomination: Decoy Drone
I will second this one, it just needs to be buffed somehow for player use only. On the AI side this thing is deadly enough already when you get a wave of them in your face.
Is it possible to give a radar jammer effect in a radius somehow? (Like the grav turret does for the gravity effect.)
That would significantly buff it in player hands while being a much smaller buff for the AI.

Question (not nomination yet): Spire Gravity Ripper
Do these slow down units with Inf engine health? If yes, I'm not sure, you can use these to pick off the big unit from the rest of the AI forces by slowing it down. (exo-wave lead unit anyone?)
If no, they I'd probably agreed with this nomination.

Question: Siege Tower
Okay. I'm actually thinking the spirecraft in general need a polish pass (tweaking costs, etc.), especially after the last starship rework. The siege tower just shows it because it is the only direct combat spirecraft.
I just compared the Siege Tower and the Plasma Siege Starship. The MK I Siege Tower sucks compared to the Mk I Plasma. The siege tower does scale better however, a cap of Mk III Siege Towers is about equal to a cap of Mk III siege. You just need to find enough asteroids.....

Admittedly, when compared to the Flagship or the Zenith SS, the Siege Towers stats do look better.


Question: Guard posts
I'm not sure here. The danger of the guard post has always been the ships the AI spawns to defend it, not the guard post itself. When you get the guard post alone against your fleet it is supposed to just kind of die. Especially the lower Mark guard posts early in the game.

Question: Spire Starship
This got a Hull type change and a significant DPS buff a few patches ago. Anyone used these recently want to share their experience?

Question: Hardened FF
10 more FFs for 1,000 knowledge? Sold.
If you don't need 10 more FFs then these are pretty lackluster but as they are so similar to regular FFs I'm not sure these warrant a change.
If both Regualr FFs and Hardened FFs cost 1,000 knowledge to unlock, would you always go for the Regular FFs? I would not so I think these are probably okay.

Question: Tachyon Drone
I'm not sure here. Spending knowledge to gain tachyon abilities is a choice you make. I already find decloakers a tough choice to unlock, even when fighting a Stealth type AI. These are supposed to give you basic tachyon abilities that you can stick on a warp point to catch enemy ships, not a general purpose decloaker.
I would see a cap buff before I saw any sort of range increase, these are poor tachyon units by design because they are free.

Question: Missile Silo
I don't see a need to mess with the existing warheads. I'd be up for new ones if we can agree on something useful though.
Keep in mind that a lot of people don't have spirecraft enabled and so don't have martyrs and Carriers are not EMP immune.

Anyways, those are my thoughts at the moment.

D.

[TechSY730]

14,000 k? Split into two techs, mkIV and V, costing 3 and 11 k. The first should build mkIV drones, and mkIV fleetships only if you have a FactIV somewhere. The mkV acts as the current mkIV. Again, 14 thousand knowledge?

Making the IV's capacity to build mkIV fleet ships conditional would be pretty nasty implementation-wise, which is why I haven't done that.  Other than that, it's a sensible solution.

How about that "using the dynamic cap logic for Mk. IV ships" idea I suggested somewhere else to implement this somewhat cleanly.

If you want more detail, I can post my idea in full again.

[Hearteater]

Just wanted to answer the "Why Guard Posts" question for those that haven't been around that block before:
A single cap of Mark I Bombers can kill any non-Core Guard Post in the game with minimal losses.  Guard Posts (non-Core) are seriously not a threat from the moment the game loads, and they only become less threatening as you unlock more powerful ships.  The biggest problem is their firepower, NOT their durability.  They need to hit hard enough they actually cost me a few ships.  I think I lose something like 4 Mark I ships to a Mark IV Missile Guard Post.  It take *5* Mark IV Missile Guard Post shots to kill a Mark I Bomber.  That's 20 seconds per Bomber.