Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (IV)

[Hearteater]

Wait, are you saying you think Leech Starships are too powerful currently?  And in macro combat currently, using only Mark I Leeches I can get 3-5% reclaimed from a wave using a Rally Post/MRS to pull the reclaimed ships out of combat.

[Toranth]

On harvester shields: how OP could they actually be, even if completely free and automatic?  Not that I'm at all entertaining such kindness to the player   But possibly some simplification: have them cost some moderate amount of K (1000 or 2000) such that you'd be rewarded for not needing them at all, and just balance their energy cost so that the direct m/c cost (which is an extremely rare mechanic) can go away.  And if you're running them off the ZPG and paying almost nothing for them, well, yay for ZPGs.

Or is that just a really bad idea?

Does the AI actually target harvesters with any frequency?  I've seen them pop a harvester as a drive-by on the way to a real target (Command Station, wormhole, FacIV, etc), but I can't remember them ever going out of the way to target a harvester unless there was literally nothing else to chase.
Under those circumstances, I don't think I'd be spending any of my precious Knowledge on a "Armored Harvester" that was indestructible.  Even if it was an otherwise resource and cost free upgrade.

If the AI does start killing harvesters at a faster rate than the 8-10 minutes or so that Dazio and I came up with, then defending them becomes more important.  Using Knowledge to replace metal/crystal is also something I'm not enthusiastic about, either.  750K is roughly 5 AIP.  That's 1 gate raid.  That's 5 distribution nodes.  And so on. 

The cost for losing a harvester is 80 seconds in resources + 150 seconds lost income for each occurance.    Cost = ( 80sec + 150sec ) * x,  where x = # times destroyed
The cost for the Exoshield is 80 seconds in resources + 0.5 * income for all the time it runs.  Cost = 80 + 0.5y.  where y = time the Exoshield exists.
Setting the two equations equal to each other and solving gives
y = 300 + 460(x-1)
or
x = (160 + y) / 460

Not that it matters, because we all know that this unit is a burden on the player, but I'm surprised you are measuring resources in seconds rather than straight efficiency, as the time might not be a big deal if you have a good economy or a lot of savings.

What would you consider as an alternate measure of efficiency?  Since build time is a constant (ignoring Assist) no matter the state of the economy, the 'seconds' unit HAD to be in there somewhere.  Resource costs translated nicely into time as well, so it made everything else simple.

[chemical_art]

Wait, are you saying you think Leech Starships are too powerful currently?  And in macro combat currently, using only Mark I Leeches I can get 3-5% reclaimed from a wave using a Rally Post/MRS to pull the reclaimed ships out of combat.

What I am asking is the DPS to remain the same. But rather then it being 60k * 3 I would like it to be a single 180k shot.

The issue and reasoning for this is caps, honestly. On low and ultra-low caps parasites alone risk having their massive dps diffused through their multiple shots. If you place that shot into a single shot, then rather then having 3 ships damaged but none reclaimed you get one ship reclaimed. Perhaps a better compromise is to have it fire two shots at 90k, maybe.

[Hearteater]

On Harvestor Shields:
The shields already cost Knowledge.  Keith's suggesting that the Knowledge cost is enough of a downside that there doesn't need to be a huge ongoing additional cost like their is presently.  Just enough of an energy cost that you don't throw them around everywhere without thinking.

On the Leech Starship:
Less shots, same DPS, would be straight up downgrade in effectiveness (except against armor, but with only three shots currently it is a really minor issue).  And Leeches were just buffed (5.025) to multiple shots.

[TechSY730]

The problem is that on lower caps, less shots with more damage is better. In contrast, on higher caps, more shots with less damage is better. (assume per shot DPS is the same)

This imbalance between caps is especially evident with the low, constant ship caps of starships.

[keith.lamothe]

The leeches need to be taught to concentrate fire until a ship is known to be going-to-be-reclaimed; I didn't realize it wasn't already but just checked and nope.

Just making them single-shot does solve that problem but it tends to make them not really reclaim a lot.  I'd rather get their autotargeting behavior better and increase their rof, rather than decrease it, so that they can start hauling in more significant catches.

[Cyborg]

The cost for losing a harvester is 80 seconds in resources + 150 seconds lost income for each occurance.    Cost = ( 80sec + 150sec ) * x,  where x = # times destroyed
The cost for the Exoshield is 80 seconds in resources + 0.5 * income for all the time it runs.  Cost = 80 + 0.5y.  where y = time the Exoshield exists.
Setting the two equations equal to each other and solving gives
y = 300 + 460(x-1)
or
x = (160 + y) / 460

Not that it matters, because we all know that this unit is a burden on the player, but I'm surprised you are measuring resources in seconds rather than straight efficiency, as the time might not be a big deal if you have a good economy or a lot of savings.

What would you consider as an alternate measure of efficiency?  Since build time is a constant (ignoring Assist) no matter the state of the economy, the 'seconds' unit HAD to be in there somewhere.  Resource costs translated nicely into time as well, so it made everything else simple.

We disagree that build time is constant. I have approximately 30 engineers moving around in a galaxy at any given time. Like I said, not a big deal, I just thought it was weird that you actually wait 80 seconds to build one of these. You are also calculating 150 seconds lost income, but I'm not sure that's even correct because you get credit for the harvester before the shield. I don't know where you're getting these numbers.

Doesn't matter.

[chemical_art]

The leeches need to be taught to concentrate fire until a ship is known to be going-to-be-reclaimed; I didn't realize it wasn't already but just checked and nope.

Just making them single-shot does solve that problem but it tends to make them not really reclaim a lot.  I'd rather get their autotargeting behavior better and increase their rof, rather than decrease it, so that they can start hauling in more significant catches.

I'm so used to having things like "better targeting logic" to not be available since so often it is too cpu intensive or otherwise unfeasible.

But if you can make the targeting logic so they focus fire on ship(s) until they know they are reclaimed then yes, that would accomplish the need quite well.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm so used to having things like "better targeting logic" to not be available since so often it is too cpu intensive or otherwise unfeasible.

It varies; some forms of automation are prohibitively expensive or just impossible-to-get-it-where-players-want-it, in this case it shouldn't be too hard.

[Ranakastrasz]

I like hardened shields. Yes, they have a very similar role to normal shields, but they fair much better against things with no armor piercing. You would start noticing the difference if the AI was allowed to use them, and then you would start to see how their armor can make an impact in combat.

They have 20% more health (last I checked) Vs things without armor piercing. If Their armor is totally bypassed, then they have, I think, 25% normal shield health. So, I really don't see the difference.

Can you elaberate?

[TechSY730]

I like hardened shields. Yes, they have a very similar role to normal shields, but they fair much better against things with no armor piercing. You would start noticing the difference if the AI was allowed to use them, and then you would start to see how their armor can make an impact in combat.

They have 20% more health (last I checked) Vs things without armor piercing. If Their armor is totally bypassed, then they have, I think, 25% normal shield health. So, I really don't see the difference.

Can you elaberate?

20% more effective durability is actually quite a bit. Try listening to a song that's been sped up by 20%, or see the difference when something is 20% cooler, or hear what something is like when it is 20% louder and you will see that 20% increase is quite a bit.

Yes, they do start suffering when under fire from things with armor piercing, but armor piercing is the exception, rather than the rule.

[chemical_art]

Could nenzul ships not make a sound when they die?

It is painful to deep strike with a nenzul ship pumping them out to hear that

Repeated.

Consistent.

Dieing.

It can haunt me after too long.

[Ranakastrasz]

I like hardened shields. Yes, they have a very similar role to normal shields, but they fair much better against things with no armor piercing. You would start noticing the difference if the AI was allowed to use them, and then you would start to see how their armor can make an impact in combat.

They have 20% more health (last I checked) Vs things without armor piercing. If Their armor is totally bypassed, then they have, I think, 25% normal shield health. So, I really don't see the difference.

Can you elaberate?

20% more effective durability is actually quite a bit. Try listening to a song that's been sped up by 20%, or see the difference when something is 20% cooler, or hear what something is like when it is 20% louder and you will see that 20% increase is quite a bit.

Yes, they do start suffering when under fire from things with armor piercing, but armor piercing is the exception, rather than the rule.

Eh, Well, Aside from slightly altered strengths and weaknesses (Or rather, Stats), Still basically the same thing. Same useage, Same limitations (No wormhole, no repair in combat (Which is still a good idea), painfully slow for anything aside from max-building coverage micro) I really think that they should have something to different them from normal shields, aside from slightly altered stats.

[Ricca]

I'd agree with a harvester buff, maybe boost Mk 2 harvesters from 28 to 30, and Lv 3 from 36 to 40?

It's a minor change, but it could have an affect over a few hours on a long game.

[Ranakastrasz]

I really dont understand why higher tier harversters were created to start with.