Nominations for Worst Ship Ever (II)

[keith.lamothe]

That's not what the in game tooltip tells me. The in game "will do this much damage to what I am hovering over" tool-tip gives me the base damage (the 60 or whatever) on a target with 0 armor.
Wait, if the minimum multiplier is four, does the in game UI report the internal base damage or 4 * internal base damage in the base weapon damage field? If it is the latter, then the tool-tip thing is correct.

The former; and the hover-tooltip is supposed to use the same computation method as the actual shot-hit logic, so perhaps there's a bug.  Can you test hitting some zero-armor stuff with a single shot from a polarizer and see if it gives you the same amount as is listed as shot power, or 4x that?

[TechSY730]

That's not what the in game tooltip tells me. The in game "will do this much damage to what I am hovering over" tool-tip gives me the base damage (the 60 or whatever) on a target with 0 armor.
Wait, if the minimum multiplier is four, does the in game UI report the internal base damage or 4 * internal base damage in the base weapon damage field? If it is the latter, then the tool-tip thing is correct.

The former; and the hover-tooltip is supposed to use the same computation method as the actual shot-hit logic, so perhaps there's a bug.  Can you test hitting some zero-armor stuff with a single shot from a polarizer and see if it gives you the same amount as is listed as shot power, or 4x that?

OK, on medium caps.

A single polarizer is reported to have a 192 base damage.
Against something with 0 armor (in this case, a wormhole guard post) the tooltip says it will do 192 damage.
After one shot, the wormhole guard post has 399,999,808 HP.
So 400,000,000 - 399,999,808 = 192 damage.

On high caps.
A single polarizer is reported to have a 96 base damage.
Against something with 0 armor (in this case, a wormhole guard post) the tooltip says it will do 96 damage.
After one shot, the wormhole guard post has 399,999,904 HP.
So 400,000,000 - 399,999,904 = 96 damage.

Attached are the saves containing the games I used for this test case.

[keith.lamothe]

Thank you very much for doing that, saves me a lot of time. definitely sounds like a bug with the minimum multiplier not working, will look into it

I'm pretty sure it's working for the IRE an vulture since those are different mechanics, but checking those wouldn't be bad.  Basically as long as the actual/tooltip value is higher than the base it's presumably working.

[TechSY730]

Thank you very much for doing that, saves me a lot of time. definitely sounds like a bug with the minimum multiplier not working, will look into it

I'm pretty sure it's working for the IRE an vulture since those are different mechanics, but checking those wouldn't be bad.  Basically as long as the actual/tooltip value is higher than the base it's presumably working.

Oh dear, that may be why the polarizor seems to be so under-performing, its not working right. 
I guess this should be fixed (and if it effects impulse emitters and vultures too, fixing those as well), and NOT nominate these for this round, as they were not working.

If they still seem underwhelming during the third "Worst Ship Poll", then I guess renominate them.

[keith.lamothe]

FYI, no need to check the others: the vulture was getting the minimum, the IRE was probably getting it all the cases that mattered.

Basically, if the energy/armor (respectively for IRE and polarizer) was actually zero, it wouldn't enter the multiplier branch at all, and thus not check the minimum.  I don't know of a combat ship with zero energy use, so the IRE was probably ok, but bunches of ships have zero armor, so the polarizer was getting the short end.

Fixed (both) for 5.027 (assuming Chris isn't in the process of pushing it right now), thanks

[Bognor]

... After hull bonuses are applied, armor ships have higher cap DPS than all but 12 bonus fleet ships, excluding those that kill or injure themselves as they attack (and ignoring bonuses for area attacks etc).

... it looks like there's something different in our numbers; I'm seeing 21 types (excluding nanoswarm/autobomb/miniram) as superior max-dps ... Maybe it's from the aoe and other special stuff.

The disparity is due to a change in the two versions of your table.  In the original, there were four representations of ship cap DPS:

BaseDPS - shots hit single enemies, no hull bonus
EfficientBaseDPS - shots hit as many enemies as possible, no hull bonus
MaxDPS - shots hit single enemies, max hull bonus
EfficientMaxDPS - shots hit as many enemies as possible, max hull bonus

In the latest version:

BaseDPS - shots hit as many enemies as possible, no hull bonus
MaxDPS - shots hit as many enemies as possible, max hull bonus

I was looking at MaxDPS in the original table; I think you were looking at MaxDPS in the new version.

Anyway, what stands out to me is that Armor ships' MaxDPS is higher than that of ships like MLRS and Lazer gatling, apparently gimmickless ships that aren't defensively-themed.  Their BaseDPS is low but doesn't seem anomalously low, being higher than spiders, snipers, sentinel frigates, acid throwers, teleport battlestations, and others.

I uploaded an updated user-friendly spreadsheet version of the table here.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, thanks, that makes sense   And your spreadsheet certainly does look a lot better than the export   FYI, you can get the export (minus the category column, which I could add at some point) via a button on the Reference Tab of the Stats window in-game; you probably already knew that, but just in case.

[Wanderer]

In a recent discussion I was asked why I disdain the Spider Bot.

On normal/normal they get 78.4k DPS Raw.  They move reasonably quickly and they also get a DPS boost.  As a comparison, a cap of Laser Gatlings is 180k DPS Raw.  I consider Laser Gatlings weak too, but that's more because of current armor mechanics.

They get a massive 6x bonus as well on swarmer, close combat, light, and ultra-light. 
For Light (Fighter, Anti-Armor, and Bulletproof, Microfighter, and Spider)
MK I vs. Mk I Raw: Anti-Armor, dies in one hit, no need for boost.  Bulletproof, it can't hit, it uses shell ammo.  Fighter 2 hits to kill.  Microfighter: 2 hits to kill.  Spider: 1 hit to kill.  This boost is un-necessary.

Ultra-Light:
4 Experimental Craft of Decoy, microparasite, speed booster, and translocator.  Of those only one is AI usable (afaik) and that's Decoys by the support AI.

There's a few guardians that are ultra-light (Raider, self-destructor, sniper, and spider guardians).

For fleet ships: Parasites (3 hit raw), space plane (1 hit raw), Raider (1 hit raw, and can't catch it), Sniper (3 hits raw), and tele-raiders (1 hit raw).

Starships: Leech and Raid starships.  It can't catch the raid starship but the boost to leech is nice.  In general, though, another weak boost, even if it's a huge number.  Mostly because it doesn't need the 6x.

Close Combat:
Acid Sprayer (2 hits), Autobomb (2 hits), Chameleon (3 hits), Cockroaches (1 hit), Cutlass (2 hits), Neinzul Swarmer (1 hit), Spire Blades (1 hit), Viral Shredders (2 hits), Wasps (non AI), and Youngling Nanoswarms (1 hit).

6x might be a bit silly here but it does mean they'll be better against much higher marks of ships.  This is nice.

Swarmer:
Autocannon (1 hit), Deflector (1 hit), Laser Guardians (nice), Infiltrator (1 hit), Laser Gatling (1 hit), Commandos (2 hits).
There's nothing in this list that's even going to remotely take much to kill except for Laser Guardians.

Couple this with Low armor/hp (300 armor, 4.9mill hp cap) at mk I.  Compare to cap of Gatling again which is 11 mill, or even Fighters which are equivalent armor, higher ROF and dmg/shot, cheap as dirt, and have a cap HP of (162k*98) roughly 16 million.  Now, spiders are pretty cheap (400 material for a fighter, 240 crystal only for a spider) but they're speed bumps at best.  One hit wonders.

Between that and them getting bonuses against almost everything they could kill in 1/2 shots anyway, it's kind of a pointless ship to me.  If they could catch Raid Starships I might feel a little bit different about them, but that's a HUGE speed boost.  If you're prepared for Raids, your regular fleet will chew through the one or two in a wave anyway.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, thank you, that makes sense about the spider   Hopefully with the 5.027 buffs they'll be a little better (one idea that comes to mind is hiding them under a forcefield and exploiting that ED is not reduced by ff's, to gut the engines of some attack group), but potentially more is needed.

Though one question about the bonuses: sure it 1-hits a lot of that stuff on raw damage, but roughly what percent of the time are you only engaging mkI AI ships?  A fair bit of the game on waves, sure, but offensively.

[TechSY730]

I changed by vote to acid-sprayers. Yes, they are amazing when up against what they have a bonus against, but BY FAR most of the time, they won't be. (Though they do have a polycrystal bonus, which makes them nice bomber counters) And in those majority "average" situations, they are lacking. Not completely pathetic, but not good enough that I would want to use them.

- Armour boosters.  These need to bring up armour to a flat amount if armour is lower than the multiplied amount, IMO.

Just wanted to let you know I added this to Mantis, and credited you.
You can find it at http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6054

[Wanderer]

Ah, thank you, that makes sense about the spider   Hopefully with the 5.027 buffs they'll be a little better (one idea that comes to mind is hiding them under a forcefield and exploiting that ED is not reduced by ff's, to gut the engines of some attack group), but potentially more is needed.

Though one question about the bonuses: sure it 1-hits a lot of that stuff on raw damage, but roughly what percent of the time are you only engaging mkI AI ships?  A fair bit of the game on waves, sure, but offensively.

Really, my 'special ship', if I take it from the beginning, is something I'm probably going to MK III pretty quickly.  So, that's a MK I to MK I comparison.  Assuming MK III to MK III, it's equivalent.   Now, I realize I'm comparing the cap's DPS to other ship's hit points when I say 1 hit, 2 hit, etc.   The multipliers give them 6 'one hit ships' per salvo, instead of one or two.  It's just that the things they target are so weak that I don't really care about multipliers against those types of ships except for two of them.  The Laser Guardian and the Leech starship since it got its HP boost.  Otherwise really it's a light fleet ship with a special role that has decent range like the Missile Frigates.  If i need these kinds of bonuses, I'd just take Missile Frigs to MK III.  I think I've done that once or twice.  At least the missile frigs will survive contact with the enemy.

RE: Acid Sprayers:  These ships aren't bad as turret hunters because of their immunities.  Their DPS is a bit weak but it's basically built to be a turret hunter in my mind.  The only problem is that the AI doesn't get turrets anymore, so their immunities are roughly pointless unless your AI has snipers or something missileish as its extra units.

[TechSY730]

It seems that for most hull types, having a specialist 6x ship against them at the expense of general purpose effectiveness is not worth it. Most hull types in the game just don't have extremely durable stuff in them, or if they do, they aren't widespread enough.

The exceptions would be the ones the bomber has. Structural, command-station, and ultra-heavy are all common, important, and typically durable enough that having a specialist unit vs. them is very nice.

Things like swarmer, close-combat, ultra-light, and light, although decently common, don't really have many things in them that you need bonuses against, as most things with those hulls aren't very durable.

Most of the other hull types that spiders and acid rotters have a bonus against are pretty rare, and thus rarely worth having a specialist unit against.

I would say for the acid rotters and the spiders, maybe increase their non-bonus DPS by 2x, but reduce their bonuses from 6x to 3x. They may be a little worse in their specialization, but for the reasons mentioned above, that is not that big of a deal. However, they would be much more useful overall.

[Hearteater]

Acid Sprayers are a ship I wish could be fixed with a new mechanic:

Remove their x6 multiplier and have all their attacks add a damage-over-time debuff that ticks five time, once/second, dealing the same damage their shot did initially.  Don't let it stack, but have it get refreshed if the target is struck again.  They effectively have x6 vs. everything, but they don't stack up well against one ship.  They'd need Paralyzer-like targeting to spread their damage as much as possible.

Optionally, give them the Heavy Beam Cannon ability to chain overkill damage onto the next ship.  That would make the x6 multiplier relevant.  Conceptually this would be a cloud of acid that insta-disintegrates whatever it touches, allowing it to continue on past destroyed ships as long as any acid remains in the cloud.

[Wanderer]

Ah, thank you, that makes sense about the spider   Hopefully with the 5.027 buffs they'll be a little better (one idea that comes to mind is hiding them under a forcefield and exploiting that ED is not reduced by ff's, to gut the engines of some attack group), but potentially more is needed.

Though one question about the bonuses: sure it 1-hits a lot of that stuff on raw damage, but roughly what percent of the time are you only engaging mkI AI ships?  A fair bit of the game on waves, sure, but offensively.

A side note about this.  I dislike using fleet ships as defenders once I've dug in the whipping boy.  IE: Autobombs or weaker younglings.  Sure, they're great on defense, but I could open up another turret for the equivalent if I had gotten a decent attack ship in the first place.  My ships are for offense.  Turrets are for defense.  If my fleet ships are on defense I'm either early game or I really screwed the pooch somewhere.  ED doesn't mean much to me on offense, usually.  It doesn't mean much to me ever, actually, unless I'm overwhelmed in a system and need a breather from a particular angle.  It's not that easy to set that up either.  But ED in defense would be fine if the rest of your turrets would put a higher priority on non-ED ships, and that's not always good either.  *shrugs*

It's a different kind of damage and one I find interesting, but unless I can find ways to use it offensively it's not going to carry a lot of weight for me.  I use grav turrets to slow things down.  ED is redundant.

[HellishFiend]

Ah, thank you, that makes sense about the spider   Hopefully with the 5.027 buffs they'll be a little better (one idea that comes to mind is hiding them under a forcefield and exploiting that ED is not reduced by ff's, to gut the engines of some attack group), but potentially more is needed.

Though one question about the bonuses: sure it 1-hits a lot of that stuff on raw damage, but roughly what percent of the time are you only engaging mkI AI ships?  A fair bit of the game on waves, sure, but offensively.

A side note about this.  I dislike using fleet ships as defenders once I've dug in the whipping boy.  IE: Autobombs or weaker younglings.  Sure, they're great on defense, but I could open up another turret for the equivalent if I had gotten a decent attack ship in the first place.  My ships are for offense.  Turrets are for defense.  If my fleet ships are on defense I'm either early game or I really screwed the pooch somewhere.  ED doesn't mean much to me on offense, usually.  It doesn't mean much to me ever, actually, unless I'm overwhelmed in a system and need a breather from a particular angle.  It's not that easy to set that up either.  But ED in defense would be fine if the rest of your turrets would put a higher priority on non-ED ships, and that's not always good either.  *shrugs*

It's a different kind of damage and one I find interesting, but unless I can find ways to use it offensively it's not going to carry a lot of weight for me.  I use grav turrets to slow things down.  ED is redundant.

I'm not sure what ED stands for, but I have to offer an opposing opinion on this one. I dont always play on a map style that has a good "whipping boy", so I appreciate having one or two fleet ship types that make good defenders.