Nominations for target of the Nerfbat of Damocles (III)

[Diazo]

Isn't the home Command Station immune to Plasma Siege splash damage?  I'm pretty sure that change was made awhile ago.

I don't think it is. What is immune are the AIP increasing on death stuff that is near it.

BTW, I still would like the home command station to be immune. If the AI's homes are immune to plasma seige splash, it only seems fair ours are too.

I'm pretty sure it is not.

In my tries last night I more then once had my command station die with my force fields still up and all the raids dead, but the AI still had plasma siege still alive.

I did not actually see the plasma siege shot impact to kill my command station, but there was nothing else in the system that had forcefield immunity so I don't know what else it could be.

D.

[Hearteater]

*Nomination: Astro Train, AI-side
The scaling of them in generally, but the Cargo Surprise scaling in particular (7 to 8 is particularly bad compared to 8 to 9 if I recall correctly).

[TechSY730]

*Nomination: Camouflage (the mechanic), AI side
This one would require a mechanics change for both the human and AI sides, but I listed the AI side as they abuse it the worst.
Basically, if the owner decides to never move or fire the unit, there is no direct counter. Especially bad when the unit that is camouflaged is also immune to AOE effects and/or nukes and/or EMP.

I think this one just needs a touch-up on the AI behavior for cloaked units to make them more aggressive.  A cloaked AI unit on a Human world should pick something, go directly to it, and attack.  No sitting around for hours on end doing nothing.  That'd solve the biggest problem with the Camouflager and the ZCamo.

Agreed. Both cloaked and camo'd units in AI hands on human owned planets should only wait so long for that "perfect" shot. After that waiting time is up, they should retreat or go to attack, regardless of if they thing it is safe or not.

Again, it is a slight "nerf" to AI intelligence, but I think a needed one to preserve "fun".

EDIT: Also, cloaked zombies are still broken!

[TechSY730]

*Nomination: AI Hybrid plot scaling (the jump from 3 to 4 especially), AI side

Basically, the scaling on this plot seems odd. In particular, at 3, they are barely noticeable, and at 4 they build up so much and so quickly that attacking any planet starts becoming a huge pain.

EDIT: Also relevant 8893: Make Hybrids individually stronger, but decrease their spawn rate

[Eternaly_Lost]

I am going to say that any nerf to the Harvesters needs to be meet with an equal buff to the Fallen Spire Hab centers. I have seen Fallen Spire fleets costing as much as an Ion MKV die to just Special Forces. And they take long enough to rebuild as it is.

I am going to go for something that I don't think need a Nerf per say, but need a rework.

*Nomination for rework: Warp Counter attack Posts.

I find that these are more annoying then anything else. If they don't hit a Homeworld, then you don't really need to rush back to them as any defences you left on a world you care about (advanced factory, fab or whatever, should be able to take out the attack), and if they do, you basically need to pull your armies back home, sit and wait for the attack wave to come in, then leave and go back to what you where doing. Normal waves you can control where they end up with Warp gate raiding, you can't control where a Warp Counter attack wave hits, save for building Warp Jammers on every planet as it command station and that only makes certain that they will go for the homeworld.

I would really like to see this changed in some way, to make it much less of a ok, fly back and protect that planet, then go back to what you where doing, to something a bit more exciting.

I however am not sure how exactly to do that.

[TechSY730]

I am going to say that any nerf to the Harvesters needs to be meet with an equal buff to the Fallen Spire Hab centers. I have seen Fallen Spire fleets costing as much as an Ion MKV die to just Special Forces. And they take long enough to rebuild as it is.

I am going to go for something that I don't think need a Nerf per say, but need a rework.

*Nomination: for rework Warp Counter attack Posts.

I find that these are more annoying then anything else. If they don't hit a Homeworld, then you don't really need to rush back to them as any defences you left on a world you care about (advanced factory, fab or whatever, should be able to take out the attack), and if they do, you basically need to pull your armies back home, sit and wait for the attack wave to come in, then leave and go back to what you where doing. Normal waves you can control where they end up with Warp gate raiding, you can't control where a Warp Counter attack wave hits, save for building Warp Jammers on every planet as it command station and that only makes certain that they will go for the homeworld.

I would really like to see this changed in some way, to make it much less of a ok, fly back and protect that planet, then go back to what you where doing, to something a bit more exciting.

I however am not sure how exactly to do that.

Added a colon after nomination just in case Keith searching for "*Nomination:"

[Hearteater]

*Nomination: Spirecraft Scout, player-side
Those are so ridiculous it isn't even funny.  Just a pair of Mark II scouts revealed a entire 60 planet map in about 2 minutes, never going below 60% health.  And that required a single Xamphite (the second most common).  And I can repair them.  And their tooltip incorrectly states they self-attrition on worlds of Mark >= 2...but they actually don't self-attrition unless on Mark 3+ works.

I'd say make them un-repairable, always attrition on enemy worlds.  They effectively become suicide scouts you can send several hops in a direction that normal scouting isn't working.  For a little flavor, instead of dying at 0 health, they could turn into a stationary (or at least non-warp gate traveling) scouting platform for the system they are in.  This way you don't feel quite as bad about them dying, since you get a permanent scout in their final system.

[Diazo]

The thing is the Counterattack post is the only way the AI has to get ships around your chokepoint.

Overall, I'm starting to get the feeling that chokepoints have become too important to the game.

Witness me starting Fallen Spire on a lattice map and getting comments in my AAR thread about how the lack of chokepoints is going to be a game breaker and I'm crazy for trying it. (Okay, the comments were not that extreme, but I'm making a point.)

I'm only facing 350 ships in the exo-wave that spawns for building the first spire city, but because I can't chokepoint due to the map layout I have to let them through my border worlds into my home system as my home system is the only place I know the exo-wave ships are going to be (effectively making my homeworld the chokepoint) so I can build all my defenses there. My home command then proceeds to die before my defenses can kill them.

If I could fortify a border world, the extra defensive depth would make this an easy fight, but I have 4 border worlds due to the lattice map and it is random which border worlds the exo-wave is going to cross. And if I split my defenses 5 ways (4 border + homeworld), the exo-wave won't even notice said defenses while an awful lot of my defenses never fire a shot from being in the wrong system.

Having said that, it is good strategy to establish a chokepoint regardless as it allows you to concentrate your forces. That is going to be true regardless of any changes made to the game.

So, I'd like more options for the AI to get around chokepoints. Not with significant forces as a chokepoint should still be rewarded, but enough that you can't dump 99% of your defenses in one system and be safe.

Not a topic for the Nerfbat thread though, this is really about map layout and how warp point connections affect difficulty.

D.

[TechSY730]

*Nomination: Spirecraft Scout, player-side
Those are so ridiculous it isn't even funny.  Just a pair of Mark II scouts revealed a entire 60 planet map in about 2 minutes, never going below 60% health.  And that required a single Xamphite (the second most common).  And I can repair them.  And their tooltip incorrectly states they self-attrition on worlds of Mark >= 2...but they actually don't self-attrition unless on Mark 3+ works.

I'd say make them un-repairable, always attrition on enemy worlds.  They effectively become suicide scouts you can send several hops in a direction that normal scouting isn't working.  For a little flavor, instead of dying at 0 health, they could turn into a stationary (or at least non-warp gate traveling) scouting platform for the system they are in.  This way you don't feel quite as bad about them dying, since you get a permanent scout in their final system.

Oh duh, forgot about those.


While we are at it...

*Nomination: Spirecraft Jumpship transport, human side

*Nomination: Spirecraft Martyr, human side
Or at least nerf the Mk. II version (the lowest Mk. version) enough that you would want to consider using the higher marks.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Nerfbat nomination:
*Nomination: Zenith Bombard again, AI side

I'm not sure if it's actually really good, but it's a royal pain to clean them up because they have the combination of:

• Immunity to snipers
• Auto-retreat range bigger than most ships' weapon ranges

The only thing I've found to be good at it is Spire Blade Spawners, but I haven't tried other types of drones. Maybe if there was a starship with, say, a 16000 range weapon a bonus against artillery, and good DPS (because  the Riot Control laser just isn't going to cut it), and that was vulnerable to sniper shots.

The problem is especially bad in Fallen Spire, because the only thing you can put on a Spire Cruiser that outranges the retreat on a Zombard is the MkIII HBC that replaces its shield generator. Anything else has to ponderously lumber after each individual Zombard.

---

On the economy, what I'd do is remove unlocking harvester upgrades, and make the harvester level you can build a function of the economic level of the starbase in a system, e.g.:

Starbase	Harvester level
Military	I
Econ I	II
Econ II	III
Econ III	IV

[TechSY730]

Agreed on the Zombards. They still need a stat nerf, not just an AI usage "cost" nerf like they got last time. (BTW, is that working? I haven't seen anything in the logs suggesting the AI is paying more for them or getting their numbers chopped because of their ship type or special flag they have)

Yes, a stat nerf would nerf human usage as well, but that is fine. It is a bit OP in human hands, just not as visibly so.

EDIT: Idea. Maybe make them immune to "overkill refunds", or at least no be refunded as much.

EDIT2: Removing their sniper immunity is also a great idea.

[Wingflier]

I'd rather them not get nerfed in human hands.  They seem like they're in a decent place.

[Hearteater]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with them either.  Teleporters shut them down easily and now Heavy Bomber Starships, which are more than twice as fast, can target them now.  Raid Starships are also pretty good against them.  Amusingly, they actually encourage you to split your blob to deal with them, and people complain about it.   Silly players, we don't know what we want!

[Radiant Phoenix]

What kinds of sniper weapons does the AI have, anyway? Ion cannons and?

EDIT: Wait, Ion cannons aren't sniper...

[Diazo]

Heh. Zbombards are actually a (semi-)decent reason to unlock Harvester Exo-Shields.

As force fields, including Exo-Shields (and ship module shields, such as the Riots) are immune to antimatter ammo, the ZBombards can't hurt anything under a force field.

Last time I was fighting those, I'd stick my defenses under FFs. Sure their damage output is reduced, but when the ZBombards can't hurt me it doesn't matter.

As for the AI, Sniper and Spider guardians are their most common form of sniper ammo. They can get it from other sources, but that's via bonus ship unlocks.

D.