Nominations for buff/nerf polls for Bonus Ship Types

[Jonz0rz]

*Nomination: Raptor, General Buff
- Roughly the same base dps as a fighter
- Much lower damage multiplier than a fighter (1.8 vs 6)
- 1/3 the HP of a fighter
- Takes 3x as long to build as a fighter
- Roughly 2x the cost of a fighter

In all honesty, I really like how raptors function at the moment. Stat-wise, it would be an almost perfect "swarmer" as is. All it needs is cost rebalancing and cap increase.

*Nomination: Youngling Nanoswarm, General Buff
- Really low damage, even a MK V fabricator churning them out doesn't do much (lower marks aren't even noticable)
- Self attrition + suicide is a bad combo
- The cap is pretty low
- Doesn't hit very many units, even with a full cap

The supporting effects are kind of nice. But they're pretty much a waste of a slot at the moment. Raise cap and remove self-attrition (it's going to 1shot itself anyway). I also wouldn't mind seeing these in the AI's hands.

*Nomination: Parasite, Buff for AI
- Half base dps of a fighter
- Lower Damage Multiplier than a fighter
- AI sends very few of them
- AI doesn't gain the "cheese" benefit from them

I played against a feeding parasite recently, and it was kind of a joke. Even with AIP around 350, I never saw more than 300 of them in a wave (7/7). Given their crappy combat stats, that's pretty much a wasted wave whenever they decide to send parasites. Teleporting leeches are pretty bad too, but at least they can jump 3 planets back and snipe a non-forcefielded command station.

[keith.lamothe]

The supporting effects are kind of nice.

We'll see what folks think, but honestly the supporting effects are the unit in the nanoswarm's case.  It's never supposed to have competitive DPS   Just swarming an AI planet in these is an insane force multiplier.

[chemical_art]

Antiarmor, paralysizing, and parasitic, all in a unit that is cheap even by nenzul stanrds? Yay!

[Kahuna]

*Nomination: Raptor: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-VERY bad stats

*Nomination: Raider: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-No reason to pick this over any other ship.

*Nomination: Autocannon: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-No reason to pick this over any other ship.

*Nomination: Electric Shuttle: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-Increase their health a little bit OR make them only lose 25% firepower then under a force field.

*Nomination: Neinzul Youngling Commando: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-Doesn't do anything

*Nomination: Zenith Electric Bomber: Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
-Low dps, only ok health, slow, expensive. No reason to pick over any other ship.
-Add damage multiplier vs Heavy or Medium

[keith.lamothe]

I think folks are maybe busy with other things   Here's what I see in this thread thus far (did it manually, rather than regex) :

1) Bonus Ship Types That Need A Buff In Usefulness-To-The-Player
Zenith Hydra
Anti-armor ship
Raiders
Chameleon
Electric Shuttle
Snipers
Spider Bot
Etherjets
Armor Booster
Raptor
Zenith Viral Shredder
Youngling Nanoswarm
Autocannon
Neinzul Youngling Commando
Zenith Electric Bomber
 
2) Bonus Ships Types That Need A Buff In Usefulness-To-The-AI
Etherjet
Raptor
Raider
Anti-armor ship
Spire gravity ripper
Armor booster
Parasite

3) Bonus Ships Types That Need A Nerf In Usefulness-To-The-Player
(none)

4) Bonus Ships Types That Need A Nerf In Usefulness-To-The-AI
(none)


Did I miss anything?  Anyone have one to add?

[Tridus]

Nomination: Neinzul Railpod, buff for AI-side

I kind of think Railpods should be on the "needs a buff to the AI" list. An AI I'm playing now has them as a bonus ship, and it's a very binary ship. If they get somewhere vulnerable, they can do damage really fast.

But if they wind up attacking somewhere with anything resembling a solid defense, they kill themselves and just don't do that much in return. I saw a wave attack a planet with a millitary command station under a forcefield, and some turrets. They killed a few turrets and then the entire wave was dead except the starship, in a couple of seconds.

[TechSY730]

Given that the Tackle Drone Launcher and the Spire Blade Launcher are not in the "to nerf for the AI" list, I take it to mean that the AI is already paying more for them than just the reduced cap would imply. If not, that should go on there.

Also, I think that the grenade launchers need a buff in both sides' hands. They seem to be a bit too focused on AOE to the expense of useful damage per ship.

[Kraiz]

I agree with a lot of the previous suggestions, and the reasons the suggestions were made.  So, I won't bother re-nominating any of the aforementioned nominations.

The only one that immediately springs to mind (mainly because I'm playing a game with these right now...) is:

* Nomination:  Lightning Torpedo Frigate - Buff For Humans
 - I play on Blitz speed, and even on Blitz speed the torpedoes fired by these are breathtakingly slow.  Most times they do not hit anything in an engagement, as any mobile ships are usually destroyed by the time the torpedoes get remotely close, and guard posts shoot them down.  I'm not sure how these would be rebalanced, but the torpedoes just don't come into use except for occasional miracle strikes.  I still think the AI should have opportunity to shoot these down, but they travel so slowly that they rarely get to where they need to go and the main DPS of the unit is null and void.

I really like the unit, but it is hard to find a niche where I can use these effectively.

[chemical_art]

Given that the Tackle Drone Launcher and the Spire Blade Launcher are not in the "to nerf for the AI" list, I take it to mean that the AI is already paying more for them than just the reduced cap would imply. If not, that should go on there.

I think toggle that specifically disables them is a nerf if the player has no interesting in using them.

Also, I think that the grenade launchers need a buff in both sides' hands. They seem to be a bit too focused on AOE to the expense of useful damage per ship.\

In all my memories of AI Wars, I don't recall these at all, so they certainly stand to reason.

[Faulty Logic]

Ah, totally missed this.

Nomination - buff - player : Lightning and Flak Turrets.
Weak long-range ability? MOAR damage? Less k?

Nomination - buff - player : Civilian leaders.
Can still be seeded on wormholes.

Nomination -nerf - AI : Starship dissamblers
Don't seem to have changed, while starships now have half caps, so a small group of these completely eats your starship fleet.

Nomination - nerf - AI : Artillery guardians
One volley, and your starship fleet/ champion is dead. Lessen alpha strike.

Nomination - buff - AI and player : Ion cannon
Pretty much ignorable in most cases. Remove insta-kill immunity from anything less than a starship (so guardians and psuedo-starship fleetships are out of luck). Allow "charging" of up to 3x initial volley.

Nomination - buff - AI and player : Orbital mass drivers paint scratchers

Nomination - buff - player : Logistics stations

Nomination - buff - player : Distribution nodes
Remove trojan chance.

Nomination -buff- player (and NRC) : warheads
Add AoE immunity immunity, remove it from martyrs
//absolutely NOT part of plan to take over the galaxy
//Honest.

Edit: removed * from nominations upon being informed that none of them were actually, you know, bonus ships.

[Qatu]

Ancient Shadows expansion: nerf nebulae rewards or buff AI counter stuff
 Presently enabling that expension makes the game so easy now that i know it well that i can consistently win level 9 games and even won a couple of level 10 games. Besides getting an early ravenous nebulae, nebulaes are otherwise all guaranteed wins after a few times, and the reward is 5 planets worth of resources and energy, 1.5 planet worth of knowledge, 3 amazing modular fortresses, a very strong unit that can usually replace raid ships for raids and is very good for fleet combat, and around 100 ships that i would consider between starships mk1 and mk2. The cost is... 0 AIP and according to my latest win, 115 opposing shadow ships over a 9 hour game. And getting to those nebulae is only a matter of escorting the shadow ship with the main fleet, so outside of level 10 games or when i had too many gimmicks enabled, i've had no trouble getting to them. I'm really enjoying the content of that expansion more than the ones that came before it because i hate exo waves, but it's making the game very easy by now.

 I'm not sure how to balance it better since i really like those rewards and like not having to face exo waves and something that is off the AIP scale but as long as I dont get hit by exo waves as i result i'll probably be happy.

[Bognor]

I largely agree with both of you, Qatu and Faulty, but Keith was actually asking about bonus ships in this thread.

[Faulty Logic]

I largely agree with both of you, Qatu and Faulty, but Keith was actually asking about bonus ships in this thread. 

Oh. Right. Oops
High caps in general then, need a buff (their cap-dps should be somewhat higher (about 25% higher)) than the normal cap ships. Other than that, not much.

[Kahuna]

Given that the Tackle Drone Launcher and the Spire Blade Launcher are not in the "to nerf for the AI" list, I take it to mean that the AI is already paying more for them than just the reduced cap would imply. If not, that should go on there.

Also, I think that the grenade launchers need a buff in both sides' hands. They seem to be a bit too focused on AOE to the expense of useful damage per ship.

I'd have nominated those btards if I wasn't derping and just thinking about "ships to buff"..
Here we go:
Bonus Ships Types That Need A Nerf In Usefulness-To-The-AI
*Nomination: Tackle Drone Launcher: Nerf In Usefulness-To-The-AI
*Nomination: Spire Blade Spawner: Nerf In Usefulness-To-The-AI

[Kahuna]

Ah, totally missed this.

Nomination - buff - player : Lightning and Flak Turrets.
Weak long-range ability? MOAR damage? Less k?
In my current game I've been testing Flaks and Lighning T.s with pretty good results.

Warning: The Wiki is horribly outdated. It claims Mark I Flak does 24k damage.. in-game it says it does 15,6k.
NOTE: These Flak Turret DPSs are calculated damage/reload*cap*multiplier*5. According to the (horribly outdated) Wiki Mark I Flak Turret is able to hit 5 target.

Mark I Flaks' optimal DPS is 1872000. Under Force Field their DPS is 1404000 and since they're pretty much only usable under Force Field and next to Tractors that's their real optimal DPS.

Lighning Turrets' optimal DPS is 2019840 and their real optimal DPS (under Force Field) is 1514880.

For comparison Mark I Missile Turrets do 1022400 DPS and Spider Turrets do 1116000. (which is why there's NO REASON to unlock Spider Turrets anymore. they cost 3000 knowledge and Mark I + II Missile Turrets cost 3250 knowledge and do 3067200 DPS)

I think Flaks' DPS should be increased and made more bursty. This would compensate for their short range.. I mean they have only 5000 range -_____- .. so.. how about increasing their reload time to 12 seconds and increasing their damage to 33500. This would change their real optimal DPS to 1507500 and the damage would be more bursty so I think they would have a better chance of doing their job before getting obliterated thanks to their short range EVEN if they weren't under a Force Field.

Lightning Turrets' damage could be changed to 1580 and multipliers decreased to 2. This would buff their overall effectiveness while keeping the real optimal DPS pretty much the same.. it would go from 1514880 to 1516800. Their real NON optimal DPS would go from 504960 to 758400.

IF this would make them OP they could lose a bit more firepower when they're under Force Fields.. so they would be "overpowered" when not covered by Force Fields to compensate for their short range and reasonably powerful when covered by Force Fields.
Boom! Problem solved?


Nomination - buff - player : Civilian leaders.
Can still be seeded on wormholes.
Lulz I forgot these existed.. I absolutely never have these enabled. They're simply pure pain and force me to capture garbage planets.

Nomination -nerf - AI : Starship dissamblers
Don't seem to have changed, while starships now have half caps, so a small group of these completely eats your starship fleet.
I don't know how many one can swallow atm.. but maybe 1 Starship Disassembler Should be able to swallow 1, 2 or max 3 Starships?

Nomination - nerf - AI : Artillery guardians
One volley, and your starship fleet/ champion is dead. Lessen alpha strike.
How come you're ok with the current Guard Posts but not these Can't send Fighters vs MRLS GP.. can't send Starships vs Artillery Guardians.. can't send Bombers vs Flak Guardians.

Nomination - buff - AI and player : Orbital mass drivers paint scratchers
Ouch! I hate these things but.. yes.. I guess they should be buffed.. not as much as the Guard Posts were though..

Nomination - buff - player : Logistics stations
Yes please

Nomination - buff - player : Distribution nodes
Remove trojan chance.
YES PLEASE

Nomination -buff- player (and NRC) : warheads
Add AoE immunity immunity, remove it from martyrs
//absolutely NOT part of plan to take over the galaxy
//Honest.
I always play with NRC set to 10/10 and I can tell you those Mark III EMP Warheads can be a real PITA.. especially if they paralyze your whipping boy for more than 5 minutes right when 6000 CPA ships are about to attack.

Lightning Warheads are immune to Missiles.. I think EMP Warheads (and tachyons?) should be immune to missiles too.. that would be a buff to the player's EMP Warheads.. and my Missile Turrets wouldn't auto pop NRC EMP Warheads anymore
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