No matchmaking is hurting this game bad

[Ranakastrasz]

MOBA s wouldn't be so bad if they didn't suffer from run-away snowball effect, and if killing blows were not all important, But I am pretty sure that would make them no longer MOBA s

[Cyborg]

1.  You can always see what your teammate is doing.  
...
2.  You can't just leave the game.  

In regards to the first point, I think this probably extends to a far greater problem, which is no authority or leader. If you have five people on a team, who does the coordination? Most people are not predisposed to taking orders from anonymous folks, especially ones that act like jerks. Naturally, I might think that I am doing the best possible action, and my teammate might think that they are doing the best possible action, but neither of us has the authority to confirm or enforce it.

Without a leader, the best thing you can do is to politely suggest, but this can be difficult in an environment where you are stuck for at least 20 min. with players who might be terrible and hostile. The penalty? You don't get as much IP, and you could be wasting your time. Even worse, some players that AFK at the fountain get all of the IP and do none of the work. This creates even more animosity that carries over from game to game and helps make league of legends the paragon of humanity that it is.

Going back to the topic of builds for the characters, Riot allows you to build your character any way that you want, but this freedom always results in a huge argument. What's the point of having freedom if you cannot enjoy it?

What about those folks that say "meet me one-on-one by the Baron," as if the characters were equally matched in a one-on-one scenario. There seems to be some confusion that every character is great, and every character is equal. It's just not true. It's a team game, every character is different, and there are balance problems. But if you start whining about it, you create an environment where people can't work together to win.

I grew up in a time before the Internet, and I was taught phone manners. The younger folks today do not seem to have that hands-on parenting. I often see an egocentric mentality where the player feels as if they are the only one that matters, to hell with everyone else; if they die in league of legends, it's someone else's fault. Nobody takes responsibility. It's going to be a very long life if you just blame everyone else for your life instead of doing what you can to influence the outcome.

Lastly, what about those people that say "you didn't call MIA!" Who invented this? If it's so critical, why isn't it coded into the gameplay? When I play the game, I have one eye on the map at all times. All you have to do is count to five. I expect other players to take responsibility for paying attention because we are not on voice chat. If I say MIA, it's more of a courtesy than anything. If you are positioned properly, it won't even affect how you play. Other triggers include watching who just died. It's also not terribly difficult to do proper positioning, and there are secondary skills that will help you dodge and weave. Take responsibility for when you die, it goes a long way towards a happy team and will help you in real life.

[Wingflier]

MOBA s wouldn't be so bad if they didn't suffer from run-away snowball effect

MOBAs actually have built in anti-snowball mechanics, inexperienced players usually just don't realize it.  For example, if somebody goes on a killstreak (say 10 kills in a row), the first person to kill him gets 1000 gold.  Also, if a team is doing better than you are, it also means they are probably significantly higher in level.  Since experience and gold gained is based on hero level (of the person you've killed), in practice this means that you get more than they do for a successful kill.  For the most part, the more ahead you are these games, the more you have to lose.  However, even with all those mechanics, it is still very easy for the game to snowball if there is a significant disparity between the skill levels of the two teams, or if one team has much better hero lineup than the other; but the proclivity for the game to snowball is much better than say, Starcraft 2, which has no mechanics to help the player or team that is losing.

and if killing blows were not all important, But I am pretty sure that would make them no longer MOBA s

The killing blow point I completely agree with.  It's extremely counter-intuitive, especially to new players, to be giving up killing blows on purpose.  Often it results in the hero escaping, and the person who was just trying to be generous gets blamed for it.  However, when said person takes the kill to make sure the enemy doesn't get away, they also get blamed.  It's often a lose-lose situation.

A week ago I would have agreed with you, that without the killing blow mechanic, MOBAs wouldn't be MOBAs, but I recently read a blog post from one of the HoN developers that changed my mind.  If you are interested in MOBAs at all, or would like to see interesting ideas on how they could be improved, I would highly recommend the read.  http://s2nome.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/denying/

Without a leader, the best thing you can do is to politely suggest, but this can be difficult in an environment where you are stuck for at least 20 min. with players who might be terrible and hostile. The penalty? You don't get as much IP, and you could be wasting your time. Even worse, some players that AFK at the fountain get all of the IP and do none of the work. This creates even more animosity that carries over from game to game and helps make league of legends the paragon of humanity that it is.

AFKing in the fountain is more of a League problem than HoN (and I'll assume DotA 2) because doing it in HoN will ban you from matchmaking, and not temporarily mind you, until you can prove that you deserve to play again.  Having to pay $30 for the game allows the company a greater influence over what each player does.  However, this creates another problem, as I said before, of forcing angry players into a situation that they would rather leave.

I grew up in a time before the Internet, and I was taught phone manners. The younger folks today do not seem to have that hands-on parenting. I often see an egocentric mentality where the player feels as if they are the only one that matters, to hell with everyone else; if they die in league of legends, it's someone else's fault. Nobody takes responsibility. It's going to be a very long life if you just blame everyone else for your life instead of doing what you can to influence the outcome.

I've seen this pattern too, and I find it to be a larger problem with society, not just individual people, or the demographic of gamers.  I'm 24 now, and growing up with my generation has been a nightmare.  They do seem very egocentric, most of their parents never taught them respect (including mine), and they always want to shift the blame onto somebody else.  Judging from what I've seen, the generation after mine is only going to be worse.  It could just be the U.S. though, I've heard that in some other countries around the world, respecting your elders is still extremely important, and I've seriously thought about moving to one of those countries more than once.  Obviously, this failure of parenting/education has a much more far-reaching effect than just gaming, but since gaming (MOBA gaming in particular) tends to bring out the worst in people, it makes encountering it commonplace.  And yes, this "it's never my fault" attitude, does tend to make everybody miserable, in and outside of the gaming world.

Lastly, what about those people that say "you didn't call MIA!" Who invented this? If it's so critical, why isn't it coded into the gameplay? When I play the game, I have one eye on the map at all times. All you have to do is count to five. I expect other players to take responsibility for paying attention because we are not on voice chat. If I say MIA, it's more of a courtesy than anything. If you are positioned properly, it won't even affect how you play. Other triggers include watching who just died. It's also not terribly difficult to do proper positioning, and there are secondary skills that will help you dodge and weave. Take responsibility for when you die, it goes a long way towards a happy team and will help you in real life.

MIA (missing in action) was originally invented for DotA, and is a short way of telling people that an enemy has left your lane (and is therefore, unaccounted for).  One usually says "bot mia" or "mid mia", depending on which lane they are calling.  The problem is yes, the player has to stop what you are doing to type it, which can often get you killed, or at the very least make you waste precious time.  Your personal ability to watch the minimap and count enemy heroes while still playing the game is impressive, but you shouldn't assume that everybody has the talent to do that as well.  I've been playing these games for 7+ years now, and I still can't do that.  

In terms of why there isn't an in-game method for calling missing, your guess is as good as mine.  In DotA there wasn't one because it was simply a Warcraft mod, the engine not being designed for the map.  In HoN you have voice chat, where with the click of a button you can tell your team not only that there is someone missing, but who it is, and where you think they're going, without interrupting what you're doing (there are also user-created mods that put buttons on the screen which you can click to do it for you as well).  In LoL...I honestly have no idea.

edit:  Maybe we should move this to off-topic.  Sorry

[vordrax]

Cyborg, the reason I left it at "Don't comment" et cetera is because this isn't the League of Legends message board. I assume this isn't even the "Off-Topic Posting" board, so I just left it at a response to comment on the Tribunal (which you turned into personal commentary), and that comment was only part of my post. If you'd like to further press the issue, you can take it to PMs with me or on the League of Legends forum, or even the GameFAQs LoL board. But right now, it feels like you are more interested in crusading against... something.... than actually engaging in rational discussion, which is indicative of a troll. Since you probably aren't a troll, and most likely you are just letting off steam on what you perceive to be a non-threatening message board, please follow my advice and move the commentary elsewhere. Thank you.

[Cyborg]

The killing blow point I completely agree with.  It's extremely counter-intuitive, especially to new players, to be giving up killing blows on purpose.  Often it results in the hero escaping, and the person who was just trying to be generous gets blamed for it.  However, when said person takes the kill to make sure the enemy doesn't get away, they also get blamed.  It's often a lose-lose situation.

So true. The killing blow is the primary source of argument. Not enough kills, "kill stealing," and blaming the character if you have too many kills. You cannot win, as no one is really interested in the success of anyone besides themselves; emphatically, their lack of success is probably your fault in their eyes.

I have HoN, I haven't played it in months. I really don't like it, but it has more to do with the mechanics compared to league of legends and Defense of the ancients. I paid $30, and I found the community to be just as hotheaded. It depends on who you play with. It's always better to play with people you know. I just played this morning with some guys I'm used to playing with, and we had a great game.

It could just be the U.S. though, I've heard that in some other countries around the world, respecting your elders is still extremely important

I have done my fair share of world travel, and there are knights and thieves everywhere. Some countries I have visited are more addicted to the Internet and texting (correlated with social detachment) than we are. However, the ability to look within and analyze your own personality is something that state-sponsored religions in other countries support, whereas the United States does not.

(about watching the map)

You can do it, you just need to focus your eyes so that they include the mini map. You have to relax your eyes a little bit and change your viewing perspective. To prove you can do it, all you have to do is look at a replay of any of these games as an observer. It's a similar thing. And if not, just move your eyes back and forth. It doesn't have to be that frenetic, because the characters take about 8 seconds to move from the center lane to the bush in league of legends.

In terms of why there isn't an in-game method for calling missing, your guess is as good as mine.  In DotA there wasn't one because it was simply a Warcraft mod, the engine not being designed for the map.  In HoN you have voice chat

Voice chat... That might work for league of legends, although I could see myself turning that off in a real hurry.  

Cyborg, the reason I left it at "Don't comment" ...

My latest post wasn't addressing you. It was discussing moba. If you have some particular issue or are unable to move on, you can private message me.

[Wingflier]

I have HoN, I haven't played it in months. I really don't like it, but it has more to do with the mechanics compared to league of legends and Defense of the ancients. I paid $30, and I found the community to be just as hotheaded. It depends on who you play with. It's always better to play with people you know. I just played this morning with some guys I'm used to playing with, and we had a great game.

Yep, HoN vs. LoL is really just a personal choice really, one of those vanilla vs. chocolate or Coke vs. Pepsi situations.  They both have their ups and downs, though LoL is unarguably better for new players to genre, which leads HoN's community to be incredibly hostile and elitist (in a genre that already has plenty of that).  HoN isn't as friendly to new players as it could be, which I think is a huge hindrance to what could be a significantly more successful game.  I honestly expect either Blizzard DotA or DotA 2 (Valve's game) to bridge the gap between HoN and LoL, making a game that is just as competitive and balanced as HoN, while being as accessible and noob-friendly as LoL.  When (if) that happens, I'll probably leave both games behind, since they both have fundamental flaws in my opinion, that I assume the big name companies won't overlook.

However, the ability to look within and analyze your own personality is something that state-sponsored religions in other countries support, whereas the United States does not.

It's interesting that you brought up self-analyzation or introspection as one of the core tools for a person's success.  I completely agree here, and find this characteristic to be lacking in most people I've ever met.  Part of introspection is understanding who you are, how you relate to the world, and how other people relate to you.  I believe that if you have good enough introspection, you will develop self-respect, which often leads to respect in others as well.  Part of learning self-respect is learning to take responsibility for your actions.  Sadly, this isn't a quality that is taught in this country (especially as you said, by the common religion, which is usually focused on faith-based things and what you can do to improve the next life [at least from my experience]).

Voice chat... That might work for league of legends, although I could see myself turning that off in a real hurry. 

It definitely has its upsides and downsides.  On the bright side, you can mute any particularly annoying person with the click of a button, or I suppose you could even turn off the entire thing and just use it for outgoing messages (though that may be a little hypocritical of you ;p).

[Strill]

I grew up in a time before the Internet, and I was taught phone manners. The younger folks today do not seem to have that hands-on parenting. I often see an egocentric mentality where the player feels as if they are the only one that matters, to hell with everyone else; if they die in league of legends, it's someone else's fault. Nobody takes responsibility. It's going to be a very long life if you just blame everyone else for your life instead of doing what you can to influence the outcome.

I've seen this pattern too, and I find it to be a larger problem with society, not just individual people, or the demographic of gamers.  I'm 24 now, and growing up with my generation has been a nightmare.  They do seem very egocentric, most of their parents never taught them respect (including mine), and they always want to shift the blame onto somebody else.  Judging from what I've seen, the generation after mine is only going to be worse.  It could just be the U.S. though, I've heard that in some other countries around the world, respecting your elders is still extremely important, and I've seriously thought about moving to one of those countries more than once.  Obviously, this failure of parenting/education has a much more far-reaching effect than just gaming, but since gaming (MOBA gaming in particular) tends to bring out the worst in people, it makes encountering it commonplace.  And yes, this "it's never my fault" attitude, does tend to make everybody miserable, in and outside of the gaming world.

lol, people have been complaining about that for thousands and thousands of years.  Even in the "other countries" where kids are supposedly well behaved, (like say, Japan) THEY complain that kids are rude and irrespectful too.

Try these on for size.

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are? decaying. What is to become of them?"

Plato, 4th Century BC

"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".

Hesiod, 8th century BC

[BobTheJanitor]

Your examples are a little off, because I don't think anyone is saying 'kids these days are rude, back in my day we were nice'. We're all saying that this is our day, or close to it (I'm assuming most of the people here are somewhere in the 10-30 years old range) and that most of our generation, right now, are complete jerks. Secondly we're mostly attributing this to the anonymity of the internet, which I don't think Plato was having any trouble with at the time.

Also, welcome to the forums.

[Ranakastrasz]

http://laughs.rd.com/clean-jokes-and-laughs/text-messaging-through-the-ages/article142133.html#slide

[Nalgas]

Your examples are a little off, because I don't think anyone is saying 'kids these days are rude, back in my day we were nice'. We're all saying that this is our day, or close to it (I'm assuming most of the people here are somewhere in the 10-30 years old range) and that most of our generation, right now, are complete jerks. Secondly we're mostly attributing this to the anonymity of the internet, which I don't think Plato was having any trouble with at the time.

Just because they didn't have 4chan and Xbox Live in ancient Greece doesn't mean they didn't have something they probably tried to attribute it to, though, and we are still saying that people are being more rude now than they used to be, whether it's people younger than us or of the same generation as us.  It can be taken as both valid and "kids these days" at the same time.

[keith.lamothe]

Just because they didn't have 4chan and Xbox Live in ancient Greece doesn't mean they didn't have something they probably tried to attribute it to, though, and we are still saying that people are being more rude now than they used to be, whether it's people younger than us or of the same generation as us.  It can be taken as both valid and "kids these days" at the same time.

Covington's law of diagnosis: there can always be more than one thing wrong.

I don't think the basic character of men and women has changed greatly since those times, but I think the ability to "say things with an audience listening with nearly-zero accountability" is a fairly new concoction poured into the brew.  In my public interactions with people talking about Arcen stuff I wouldn't say I've seen anyone say something that no one would say to my face, but I think I've seen people say things that _very, very_ few people would say to my face.  Far fewer than are willing to do it in blog comment threads.

[Nalgas]

Yeah, I think it's important to note the differences between what goes on now and the types of human interactions that were even possible in the past, but at the same time it's also important to be aware of how much of it is exactly the same as thousands of years ago.  Much of what we're talking about happening now as if it's something totally new is just an amplification or mutation of something that's been going on for at least as long as there's been more than one person around for one of them to be a jerk to the other.  We've just created new and improved ways for them to do that.  Hooray for progress!

[BobTheJanitor]

Exactly right. I don't think people are more inclined to be complete jackasses now than they were 2,000 years ago. They're just more likely to be able to do it without any repercussions. It's just basic human nature. Give someone the ability to get away with something and you see their true nature. That's why so often we hear about the rich and powerful doing horrible things that (we think) we would never do. They become convinced that they can get away with it. On the internet, you can be anyone. So your actions can't be attributed to you, so you can do whatever you want. That doesn't meant that you SHOULD, but for most people right and wrong go out the window as soon as they realize that no one can pin it on them.

[keith.lamothe]

That doesn't meant that you SHOULD, but for most people right and wrong go out the window as soon as they realize that no one can pin it on them.

Not completely out the window: many people's intrinsic character recoils from certain forms of abuse (torture, etc).  But that's basically all that's left when realize there is no physical electrical connection between your nervous system and theirs, and they're in a situation where no legal system or other construct will attempt to substitute for such a connection.

[Nalgas]

I don't even think that it's most people (in fact, I suspect it's still a sizable but relatively small (compared to what some people make it out to be) minority), but it is at least a large enough number of them that it sure is obnoxious.  If you read the comments on YouTube or play on Xbox Live with strangers, you'd think it's 100% of the population, but then you have to realize that the vast majority of people don't even bother to participate in things like that in the first place, much less act like asshats on them.