No matchmaking is hurting this game bad

[vordrax]

I would say the biggest problem with The Tribunal are points of view like yours <snip>

With all due respect, you don't know my point of view, so please don't comment on it.

[Cyborg]

The Tribunal? The biggest issue with it, at the moment, is that it creates a situation where people can troll in ways that don't involve announcing it and easily get away with it (bad item build, terrible coordination, things that annoy people and make them lose but aren't so easy to judge after the fact.) The upside is that few trolls have the self-discipline to troll without letting everyone know, since trolls are very interested in having attention.

With all due respect, this is the point of view you expressed. If you don't want comments on it, don't say it.

[Wingflier]

Alright you two.

I'll give my opinion on the Tribunal to try and convince you that you're both right (or at least that you both have good points).

The Tribunal functions like a Democracy, where the majority gets to decide the fate of country (or in this case, the accused).  Here is the major problem with the system, it is the same problem with Democracy.  The system only works if the people who exist within the Democracy are reasonable and well-educated citizens.  A proper education (both at school and at home) is the foundation for a good Democracy.  However, since the U.S. is quickly becoming one of the most poorly educated of all civilized nations on the planet, both Democracy, and the Tribunal, will be fundamentally flawed, because the opinion of the majority is fundamentally flawed.

In theory, the Tribunal may be a good system, and I'm sure it does have a big impact on the game.  However, considering the nature of the people who typically play these type of games (MOBA), I'm sure a lot of innocent players get caught in the crossfire.  However, when your playerbase is 3 million+ people strong, Riot has few options on how to police the community.  Once again, the problem lies within the players, not the game.  There's no reason to argue over it.

[BobTheJanitor]

Stop derailing away from the derail about IRC chat and get back on topic! What was the topic again? Oh forget it, let's talk about radishes.

[Orelius]

The radish (Raphanus sativus) is an edible root vegetable of the Brassicaceae family that was domesticated in Europe, in pre-Roman times. They are grown and consumed throughout the world. Radishes have numerous varieties, varying in size, color and duration of required cultivation time. There are some radishes that are grown for their seeds; oilseed radishes are grown, as the name implies, for oil production.

[keith.lamothe]

[Tribunal, etc]

The problem of where to vest coercive power in a human society is not solvable in the general case because there are always people who will not feel solidarity with the group in all decisions.  Or to put it more simply: their nerves are not electrically connected to yours and they don't see any other reason why your personal pain could possibly be be their problem.

But there are various temporary solutions structured around making it less likely that those people will get into the subset of positions that wield coercive power and reduce the amount of actual damage they can do if they do get in.



But this is veering dangerously close to a political discussion, and I'm not sure I want to test the integrity of our community's natural defenses against flamewar syndrome

Psuedo-edit: ah, I see the re-derailing has already taken place, well done.

[Wingflier]

And this is how MOBA games can turn the otherwise most reasonable people in the world into vicious monsters ;p

[keith.lamothe]

And this is how MOBA games can turn the otherwise most reasonable people in the world into vicious monsters ;p

Radish syndrome?

I hear the Penny Arcade guys are actually in on the LoL thing now, perhaps the experience will help John Gabriel will posit a corollary to the Greater Internet Theory.

[BobTheJanitor]

Competitive games in general lead to that unsavory mindset. It's hard for people to separate the idea of testing their skill against another person with that of comparing their worth to another person. They're entirely different things, but it's sometimes hard to remember that. Thus you get people linking their self esteem to their ability to push buttons in the right order in a game. Of course, it's silly, but most everyone does it. Probably some deep psychological reason for it that hearkens back to hunter-gatherer times.

Also, radishes.

[keith.lamothe]

Competitive games in general lead to that unsavory mindset.

Perhaps, but it needn't be so.  I just got back from a day of competitive boardgames, and while we played to win and frequently made fun of each other, there wasn't a single sharp comment or otherwise remotely malicious action.  Of course, Wayne somehow managed to win both games, so we'll have to do something about that next time

[BobTheJanitor]

Perhaps, but it needn't be so.  I just got back from a day of competitive boardgames, and while we played to win and frequently made fun of each other, there wasn't a single sharp comment or otherwise remotely malicious action.  Of course, Wayne somehow managed to win both games, so we'll have to do something about that next time

Sounds like you were face to face, though. The internet element helps a great deal, of course. It's that unfortunate impulse to think that all the people on the other end of the glowing computer screen are just imaginary and should be treated with as much respect as a random NPC in a game.

It makes me wonder sometimes if that's a generational thing that somehow grew out of this transitional time where society is migrating from mostly communicating with people in person or at least via phone, to mostly communicating through the internet via forums/games/twitter/whatever. Will future generations relearn the idea of being civil in social situations, and expand that definition to include online interaction, or will it just get worse and everyone will be a jerk to everyone from now until eternity? Does the fact that I'm curious about this make me sound like a grumpy old man? I should go write a letter to the editor...

[keith.lamothe]

There certainly is something to the fact that previous generations could (and generally did) teach us about proper behavior in person, on the phone, etc, but we don't have that kind of iteratively-built understanding of how to act on a forum or a chatroom or such things.

Human conduct on the internet is the result of a highly complex system of failures

[Wingflier]

Competitive games in general lead to that unsavory mindset. It's hard for people to separate the idea of testing their skill against another person with that of comparing their worth to another person. They're entirely different things, but it's sometimes hard to remember that. Thus you get people linking their self esteem to their ability to push buttons in the right order in a game. Of course, it's silly, but most everyone does it. Probably some deep psychological reason for it that hearkens back to hunter-gatherer times.

Also, radishes.

Yes, but there are competitive games, and then there are MOBAs. 

MOBAs are different than most other competitive games for 2 reasons:

1.  You can always see what your teammate is doing.  This feature of non-MOBA games has a very ignorance-is-bliss aspect attached to it.  If you can't see exactly what your allies are doing (say like in an FPS), you can't get extremely angry at them for making foolish blunders "that only a retard could make".  I suppose in RTS games you have the ability to see what your teammates are doing, but often in those games you are too busy to pay attention, are playing solo (something not available in MOBAs), or playing with a friend, who you respect too much to insult.

2.  You can't just leave the game.  Most people take for granted the ability to just leave games in an FPS or RPG environment (in RTS it usually isn't necessary, for the reasons above) and be replaced with another player almost instantly.  It prevents a lot of conflict and derision because if you find yourself getting frustrated and/or angry, you can just leave and take a break or join another server.  In MOBAs, sometimes you are stuck with the same 10 people for 60 minutes or more.  For leaving the game you are severely punished, and so the escape mechanism which most other games can afford is taken from you.  This leads to unbelievable amounts of rage when combined with point 1.

--

On the topic of getting angry or frustrated with yourself over bad performance, this is something I caught myself doing for a LONG time.  I honestly don't think the reason has to do with the hunter-gatherer times, I simply think that many gamers are very insecure about themselves, and so they try to find self-validation through their video games (everybody wants to be good at something right?)

When they start doing badly even at that, they often have to ask themselves what they are good at, which can lead to a lot of frustration and disappointment.  At least that was the case with me.

[keith.lamothe]

Note to self: never write a MOBA.

[Nalgas]

Note to self: never write a MOBA.

While many of them do result in a lot of those problems that have been brought up for the aforementioned reasons, Monday Night Combat seemed relatively tame to me, and it's basically a cross between your typical DotA clone and a third-person version of TF2.  I didn't play a ton of it, but even during the free weekend on Steam, which usually brings out hordes of idiots in any game, it wasn't bad at all.  It may help that I didn't play a ton and so never was mixed in with anyone at a particularly high level, and rounds are fairly short for a game in that genre, so you're not stuck with anyone for terribly long if you don't like them.