Author Topic: Newbie question about threat  (Read 2790 times)

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Newbie question about threat
« on: January 06, 2010, 07:39:59 pm »
Just played the game for the first time with my friend over the weekend...  We ended up playing on the easiest AI accidentally for most of the time.. but then put it on moderate AI level 7 for the final game.  I did well, but my friend eventually got crushed.  I think we played in a galaxy with 20 of so planets. 

I see in the reviews online and in the manual, that it is best to pick and choose which galaxies to actually conquer, so that you don't raise the computer threat level too much.  My question is, can you destroy everything except that actual orbital/warp station without worry or should you just avoid/go through the entire planet if you do not want to personally colonize it?

The warp stations provide a gateway for their fleets to reach you more regularly, correct?

I am just having a hard time fully understanding why you should not just slowly conquer and colonize every planet...

Also, do most people play with more than 20-30 planets?  The games seem to take a good 5-10 hours to win with even that many...

Offline CogDissident

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 07:47:52 pm »
I play games of 50-70 planets for my solo games, but then again I often play a lot of the game at speed +2 or more (you can adjust the gamespeed with the + - keys).

The orbital command station is what determines if the regular (every minute or two) reinforcements arrive at the orbital command station and all guard posts (special forces posts are independant and work regardless).

The warp gate is what determines if an "attack", like the ones that you get notifications about in the top left, will come from that particular system.

So, you can kill everything in a system except the station/warp gate and it won't cause AI progress (though special forces posts cost 1 progress, killing them is very worth it). This means that when that system gets reinforcements, it will get "less" of them (because they only show up around the orbital station). The more guard posts in system, the more ships that will appear and the more ships that will stick around to defend a system.

What is common is to "neuter" a system you want to bypass, destroy everything except the station/gate.


Offline HellishFiend

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 758
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 07:49:22 pm »

I see in the reviews online and in the manual, that it is best to pick and choose which galaxies to actually conquer, so that you don't raise the computer threat level too much.  My question is, can you destroy everything except that actual orbital/warp station without worry or should you just avoid/go through the entire planet if you do not want to personally colonize it?


Hover the cursor over something and the tooltip tells you whether or not it affects AI progress upon destruction. Long story short, you can destroy most things at an AI planet except the command station and warp gate without incurring AI progress increase (special buildings aside).


The warp stations provide a gateway for their fleets to reach you more regularly, correct?


The warp gates allow the AI to warp waves directly to adjacent planets.



I am just having a hard time fully understanding why you should not just slowly conquer and colonize every planet...


Because that would piss the AI off and makes them want to kill you more.  :D  That, plus the game would be more of a grindfest, and frankly, more boring. Deciding what planets to take, and how many, is part of the "grand strategy" of the game. It also makes the game worth playing over and over, as opposed to games being more or less the same each go-around.


Also, do most people play with more than 20-30 planets?  The games seem to take a good 5-10 hours to win with even that many...


5-10 hours is more or less the minimum for a map of any size. I'd say 15-20 is the minimum for a normal size map (60-80 planets).
Time to roll out another ball of death.

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 08:02:34 pm »
Hellish, you say that it is more grindy to take out every syetm, and I could definitely understand that.  However, cog says that it is fairly common to take out everything in a system except for the orbital/warp... this is almost the same thing, no?

Also, the warp station lets the enemy warp directly into adjacent systems.. when the ai attacks you, can't they go to any system anyhow?  In other words, even if you own a system with no enemy adjacent, can't they just attack you directly when you get an alert about them coming in xxx minutes?

Thanks again.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 08:12:31 pm »
With a 20-planet map or smaller, you can pretty much take every planet without issue, the AI Progress will never get that high.  Even with 30 planets, you can manage without too much trouble.  But on 40 planets or higher, and most specifically on the default 60-80 planet range, you'll seal your own doom if you try to take everything (some very careful and enterprising players are able to work around this on difficulty levels that I think are a little on the low side for them, but for general play that rule very much holds true).

This wiki topic also has a list of everything that causes AI Progress increases: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Progress#When_To_Worry

Hellish, you say that it is more grindy to take out every syetm, and I could definitely understand that.  However, cog says that it is fairly common to take out everything in a system except for the orbital/warp... this is almost the same thing, no?

He's referring to not taking every system on the map, versus cogs was talking about "neutering" specific systems.  Generally you wouldn't neuter every planet on the map, is the difference.

Aside from being more grindy, on a difficulty level past a certain point, it is probably impossible to take all of the planets in a larger map; as the AI Progress increases, the AI forces get significantly stronger.  Figure 20 AI Progress increase at minimum per planet taken (and more, really, considering Astro Train Stations, Special Forces Guard Posts, and other AIP-increasing things you'll run into), and you're looking at at least 1600 AI Progress in order to take all the planets in an 80 planet system.

With 1600 AI Progress on difficulty 7, often the waves coming at you will be something like 800+ Mark IV ships at once, every 20-30 minutes, and the AI planets will be incredibly well reinforced with very high-level ships.  It's a long way to 1600 AI Progress, but really it starts getting mighty unpleasant at even half that value, which is where I tend to end my games at most of the time.  There are a variety of ways you can play, for sure, but to survive the onslaught of a super-high AIP, you have to have really ironclad defenses and manage everything perfectly, and probably also play on a somewhat lower difficulty than even 7.

Also, the warp station lets the enemy warp directly into adjacent systems.. when the ai attacks you, can't they go to any system anyhow?  In other words, even if you own a system with no enemy adjacent, can't they just attack you directly when you get an alert about them coming in xxx minutes?

The alerts only come to planets that are adjacent to warp gates -- that's what warp gates do.  The smaller bands of "special forces" guys that just wander around in twos or tens, or guys that have escaped battle and are now returning, or guys that are part of a cross-planet attack, can indeed go anywhere -- warp gates are irrelevant for them. But the primary vector for large scale assaults on you is via incoming warps from outside the galaxy, and those require a warp gate.  If you kill all the warp gates adjacent to one of your planets, you can be confident that no warps will be initiated against that planet -- though that's not complete protection, it's protection against the very largest danger.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 10:43:57 pm »
Thanks for all the help.

My friend had a question as well.  Last game he got torn apart by large groups of laser gatling ships and he seems to think that there is no counter to them from the 3 main ship types available(so he says)... they move fast so they are hard to catch too...

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 11:00:18 pm »
No problem.  Regarding laser gatlings, at least in the current prereleases they are weak to frigates.  I can't remember if the same was true in 2.0 or if they got rebalanced since then -- they were overly weak at one point, then overly strong at another, and I don't remember when that was.  Now they are about right, so far as I know.

Incidentally, those are a class that are not immune to tractor beams, so if you have good defenses with tractor beams paired with turrets, those will generally ream the gatling waves.  If you throw in some frigates as well, then that really seals the deal quickly.  Main problem is if the gatlings are free to just run around your planet at will, your frigates will not be able to chase them down.

Preventing them getting free in your planet is thus the goal, and that means creating some sort of choke point.  That might be a buffer planet with cruisers waiting near the command station with a forcefield over it; that might be well-fortified tractor beams; that might be exo-shields on the harvesters, which then generally cause the gatlings to prefer other targets, thus often moving them into a choke point.

Hope that helps!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 11:44:42 pm »
Gotcha.  And they could only be built with advanced builders?

Is there a way to print out/save to disk the entire ai war wiki without going from page to page?

Also, is the AI war expansion able to be mixed and matched with the base game?  In other words, I own 2 copies of AI war so I could play with friends when they come over.  Will I have to remember which expansion key has been linked to which base key?

Great work with an amazing game.  Truly fantastic work.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 11:50:36 pm »
Gotcha.  And they could only be built with advanced builders?

Not sure what you're referring to, there (what can be built?).  Most of the stuff I was talking about can be built at your regular old command stations, but some of it requires a knowledge cost.

Is there a way to print out/save to disk the entire ai war wiki without going from page to page?

Unfortunately not that I know of, it's extremely long, and is constantly changing, too.  It gets new topics every month at least, sometimes on a shorter-term basis.  That's part of why it is online, is because its so much of a living repository -- like Wikipedia or Wookiepedia, or what have you.  If there are any shortcuts for mass printing, they would be general MediaWiki shortcuts.  That's what powers the Arcen Wiki and Wikipedia, and there are various guides around the internet for that sort of thing.  I don't know if there's a shortcut for that or not, but if so it can probably be found on the wikimedia site or via google.

Also, is the AI war expansion able to be mixed and matched with the base game?  In other words, I own 2 copies of AI war so I could play with friends when they come over.  Will I have to remember which expansion key has been linked to which base key?

Nope, the keys are not mixed.  The expansion can simply be disabled in the lobby for a single campaign if you are playing with one person with the expansion and one without, too, so that keeps it very simple.  That way you can have expansion on for solo, or on for online matches, and off when you play co-op locally, or things of that nature.

Great work with an amazing game.  Truly fantastic work.

My pleasure -- many thanks!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 12:06:05 am »
I was referring to the gatling laser ships.  I was able to build them one game and I believe I had the advanced builder... just was making sure.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 12:09:14 am »
I was referring to the gatling laser ships.  I was able to build them one game and I believe I had the advanced builder... just was making sure.

Oh -- it depends on the game as to which ships you can build.  There are 24 different "bonus ship types" that you can get (in the base game -- and an additional 13 in the expansion).  You get only one at the start, depending on which planet you choose in the lobby when you start the campaign.  Then, as you play, you can unlock up to 5 more for your team as a whole by capturing those Advanced Research Stations.  So, you're never seeing all of the various ship types in any individual game, which makes each game different.  Kind of the same idea as in the card game Dominion, if you have played that.  You can build your bonus ship types (gatlings included) at the regular space dock for Mark I-III, and the advanced factory for Mark IV.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline shadow9d9

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 12:55:41 am »
Great, thanks!

Offline Harry

  • Jr. Member Mark III
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 12:59:32 am »
Quote
Kind of the same idea as in the card game Dominion, if you have played that.

And what a nice game Dominion is!  You're right, you only use a fraction of the available cards in any given game of Dominion -- and an even smaller fraction if you use the expansions.  Somehow, though, the quaint medieval world of Dominion isn't what pops into my head as I'm battling the evil AIs in "AI War."   ;D

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 01:13:29 am »
Quote
Kind of the same idea as in the card game Dominion, if you have played that.

And what a nice game Dominion is!  You're right, you only use a fraction of the available cards in any given game of Dominion -- and an even smaller fraction if you use the expansions.  Somehow, though, the quaint medieval world of Dominion isn't what pops into my head as I'm battling the evil AIs in "AI War."   ;D
oddly, I've been playing that game a lot lately with the family, yet I never quite saw the similarities.

Does the AI pick a similar set of units to use? i seem to see it using different sets of units each game.. are all (most? some?) of those captureable ?

Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Velox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
Re: Newbie question about threat
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 08:37:25 am »

     Yes, the AI uses a different combination of bonus ships each campaign.  It starts with only a couple but "unlocks" more as the AI progress increases.