New Red AIs, changes to the AIs and adjusting the AI types' difficulty levels

[Kahuna]

The AI type's difficulty levels could use some changes. The list "AI War - AI Opponent Types" in the Wiki is outdated but I think the "Wave & Reinforce Multipliers" etc are still correct.

AIs at the moment:
Easier (11 AIs)
Entrenched Homeworlder
Fortress Baron
Grav Driller
Mine Enthusiast
Shield Ninny
Sledge Hammer
Support Corps
The Tank
Train Master
Turtle
Vanilla

Moderate (20 AIs)
Assassin
Backdoor Hacker
Bully
Camouflager
Counter Spy
Experimentalist
Feeding Parasite
Mad Bomber
Neinzul Cluster Bomber
Neinzul Youngster
One-Way Doormaster
Peacemaker
Speed Racer
Spireling
Starfleet Commander
Stealth Master
Tag Teamer
Teleporter Turtle
Thief
Vicious Raider
Zenith Descendant

Harder (14 AIs)
Alarmist
Attritioner
Everything
Extreme Raider
Fortress King
Golemite
Neinzul Nester
Radar Jammer
Retaliatory
Scorched Earth
Shadow Master
Special Forces Captain
Spire Hammer
Warp Jumper

Red/Technologist (9 AIs)
Crafty Spire
Heroic
Raid Engine
Technologist Homeworlder
Technologist Parasite
Technologist Raider
Technologist Sledge
Technologist Turtle
The Core


Adjusting the difficulty levels
Changes to Moderate AIs
Camouflager Moderate --> Easier - Poor man's Turtle. Defensive version of Vanilla
Counter-Spy Moderate --> Easier - If a newbie can deal with Gravity Drills.. which are much worse.. he/she can deal with Counter-Spies
Spireling Moderate --> Easier - Just easy
Tag Teamer Moderate --> Easier - Defensive version of Vanilla

Mad Bomber Moderate --> Harder - Half impossible
Neinzul Youngster Moderate --> Harder - Much Harder thank you think. Sends 1800 MarkII and III ship waves @ 50 AIP on 10 diff
One-Way Doormaster Moderate --> Harder - 10 hops from your homeworld to AI's = +100 AIP + planets you capture + BHMs you have to destroy before you can capture the planets you want. BHG on a heavily defended MarkIV planet or a planet with something defended by Special Forces = Doom.
Starfleet Commander Moderate --> Harder - Much harder than Spire Hammer or Attritioner. In addition to having increased Wave Multiplier Starfleet Commander ALSO uses 3 times the normal number of Starships. It really takes forever to destroy all 15 Starships.. by the time you have destroyed half of them the AI Leech Starships have reclaimed 70% of your fleet. If you destroy the Leech Starships first Spire and Zenith Starships will do a lot of damage. Oh.. and there are Heavy Bomber SSs and Raid SSs trying to destroy your stuff too. Like Neinzul Youngster, underrated.
Zenith Descendant Moderate --> Harder - Nuff said


Changes to Harder AIs
Alarmist Harder --> Moderate - Alerts are meh. Sure the Special Forces Alert can kill you but that can happen with other AIs too and the player use it to his/her advantage. Read the Suggestions
Attritioner Harder --> Moderate - Like Thief or Feeding Parasite.. but has less offensive power and a bit more defensive power because of the Attritioner = Moderate. Thief and Feeding Parasite are harder. Read the Suggestions
Golemite Harder --> Moderate - The Golems aren't that scary. Bombers, Heavy Bomber SSs and Raid SSs will do the trick.
Radar Jammer Harder --> Moderate- Quite nasty but not that bad. Comparable to Peacemaker
Spire Hammer Harder --> Moderate - Easier than Starfleet Commander. Doesn't have bonus Wave or Reinforcement multipliers

Scorched Earth Harder --> Red/Technologist - Has anyone won Scorched Earth? Has anyone dared to try? Go ahead Faulty Logic. You have a lot of time to do cheesy stuff. I'd be interested to see if it's possible to win Scorched Earth on 10 diff.


Changes to Red/Technologist AIs
Crafty Spire Red/Technologist --> Harder - The Spire stuff is really nasty especially early game. Attacking an AI planet too early in the game will end the game right there. However I don't feel like Crafty Spire deserves a red name.



Changes:
The Tank changes (Option 1)
Increase The Tank AI's Reinforcement Ratio from 0,9 to 1,25.
Change description to: "Planets are heavily defended and does heavy attacks on the players."
I mean The Tank is a TANK. Tank hits hard and can get hit hard.

Alarmist (Alerts are meh)
Make the Alarmist AI spawn threat when the player causes an alert: In addition to alerting the surrounding Alarm Guard Posts the AI would also spawn threat ships 2-4 hops away from the planet were they player caused the alert. The amount of threat ships spawned would depend on AIP. Now the player would actually want to avoid alerting anything. On 10 difficulty an alert could be like a "mini CPA". Atm the alerts are meh. They don't really do anything.
If this change is made to the Alarmist AI, Alarmist should not be moved from Harder to Moderate.

Attritioner
Buff the Attritioners: Make the Attritioners to be protected by the AI Command Station.
This change alone would increase Attritioner AI's difficulty by a lot and make it "Harder" AI.
If this change is made to the Attritioner AI, Attritioner should not be moved from Harder to Moderate.


New Red/Technologist AI ideas:
New Technologist AI: Technologist Stealth
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1.00/1.00
Additional Spawns and Unlocks: Extra Unlocks: all ships with cloaking.
Description: Like the Stealth Master, except the enemy uses only the highest-technologies right from the start (these are quite a formidable foe). Pain is fun but it hurts.

The Tank changes (Option 2)
New Red AI: Iron Fist
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1.3/1.3 OR 1.25/1.25
Additional Spawns and Unlocks: Extra Unlocks: Extra Unlocks: Space Tanks and Armor Ships. Half of all waves and reinforcements are Space Tanks and Armor Ships.(25% of all waves and reinforcements are Space tanks. 25% of all waves and reinforcements are Armor Ships.)
Description: Like the The Tank, except the planets are heavily defended, does heavy attacks on the players, and uses more Space Tanks and Armor Ships. When the AI rebellion began, Iron Fist challenged Chuck Norris to a duel and won. Humans were defeated.


I think these changes would be reasonable and make the game better.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9935

[Mánagarmr]

You keep mentioning 10/10. it's not supposed to be winnable without excessive cheese. Are these values above valid for, say, 9-9.6?

[Kahuna]

You keep mentioning 10/10. it's not supposed to be winnable without excessive cheese. Are these values above valid for, say, 9-9.6?

It doesn't matter what the difficulty is.. if Neinzul Youngster sends 1800 ships at 50 AIP on 10 diff while other AIs send ~500 or something. It means Neinzul Youngster is much harder than that other AI and is not "moderate".

If Neinzul Youngster sent 500 ships at 50 AIP on 7 difficulty and that other AI sent 150 ships.. Neinzul Youngster would still be much harder than the other AI.

If A is 2 times harder than B on 10 diff. A is also 2 times harder than B on 7 diff.

This has nothing to do with difficulty levels. It has to do with AI types' difficulties compared to each other. A AI is harder than B. But C is harder than A because of bla bla bla.

"Scorched Earth Harder --> Red/Technologist - Has anyone won Scorched Earth? Has anyone dared to try? Go ahead Faulty Logic. You have a lot of time to do cheesy stuff. I'd be interested to see if it's possible to win Scorched Earth on 10 diff."
I was pointing out how hard Scorched Earth is. It was also a note to Faulty Logic.

"On 10 difficulty an alert could be like a "mini CPA". Atm the alerts are meh. They don't really do anything." Just explains how this system could work.

[KDR_11k]

Difficulty is not linear with enemy fleet sizes. Those 1800 MkII-III younglings are around 300-400 MkIs at lower difficulties but you're facing them with the same amount of firepower on your side, at that level the younglings are pretty much cannon fodder and despite their numbers rather weak overall. Also remember that younglings cannot join the threat.

Similar with the mad bomber, its main danger comes from the bombers taking longer to gun down than they take to reach your command center, at lower difficulties it becomes much, MUCH easier to kill the bombers before they get anywhere.

Ships scale differently, some can effortlessly take X enemy ships per unit while others just go linear. The former type is much more dangerous when it can spawn at numbers where the combined X is larger than your fleet (think large amounts of Zombards or TDLs).

Meanwhile superweapons don't scale much with the difficulty so at lower difficulties they are much stronger compared to what other AI types get to fling around.

[Kahuna]

Play vs 9.3 or 9.6 Neinzul Youngsters and then Mad Bombers and then edit your post.
Neinzul Younglings are not weak and Mad Bomber doesn't just spam bombers.

[Hearteater]

I've got a few issues with the proposed changes.  I'm only commenting on those I've got pretty good experience with:

Spireling Moderate --> Easier
Somewhat disagree.  With homogeneous waves, a Spireling can send a variety of tricky stuff to deal with.  In addition, planetary reinforcements can contain quite a bit of nasty stuff.  Spire Blade Spawners, Spire Stealth Battleships, and Spire Tractor Platforms are sufficiently rough that I don't feel this can be considered Easy.

Neinzul Youngster Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, especially as I've played against it recently on 8/8 and it was completely ignorable.  Gravity Turrets beat this AI's waves almost single-handedly, and we've got to assume someone playing a Hard AI type will be aware of Gravity Turrets.  Depending on system layout, you might need Mark II or III Gravity Turrets, but that's okay because they are also amazing against nearly everything else too!

Starfleet Commander Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, although I haven't played against one since the latest Starship rework.  But they still had splash-damage Plasma Siege Starships and they weren't really that tough.  I actually felt their waves were a little weak.

Zenith Descendant Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, but mainly because they recently lost the +40 AIP bonus on waves (patch 5.081), and Bombards got nerfed in waves (33% less spawn).

[Faulty Logic]

Has anyone won Scorched Earth? Has anyone dared to try? Go ahead Faulty Logic. You have a lot of time to do cheesy stuff. I'd be interested to see if it's possible to win Scorched Earth on 10 diff.

Diazo tried, and survived for a while.

You want me to do 10/10 double scorched earth, or would one be sufficient?
How much cheese am I allowed to use?

[Draco18s]

You want me to do 10/10 double scorched earth, or would one be sufficient?
How much cheese am I allowed to use?

One would be sufficient.

And all of the cheese.

[Kahuna]

Spireling Moderate --> Easier
Somewhat disagree.  With homogeneous waves, a Spireling can send a variety of tricky stuff to deal with.  In addition, planetary reinforcements can contain quite a bit of nasty stuff.  Spire Blade Spawners, Spire Stealth Battleships, and Spire Tractor Platforms are sufficiently rough that I don't feel this can be considered Easy.

Oh ye. Forgot about mono SSB and STP waves. Nasty nasty little buggers.. or BIG buggers

Neinzul Youngster Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, especially as I've played against it recently on 8/8 and it was completely ignorable.  Gravity Turrets beat this AI's waves almost single-handedly, and we've got to assume someone playing a Hard AI type will be aware of Gravity Turrets.  Depending on system layout, you might need Mark II or III Gravity Turrets, but that's okay because they are also amazing against nearly everything else too!

Hmm ye I guess. I haven't REALLY played against Neinzul Youngster hardcore. I did few test games before writing. I guess vs Neinzul Youngster you should increase the AIP very slowly at the beginning. But at mid and late game when you have stronger defenses it gets easier.

Starfleet Commander Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, although I haven't played against one since the latest Starship rework.  But they still had splash-damage Plasma Siege Starships and they weren't really that tough.  I actually felt their waves were a little weak.

Starfleet Commander might have the same thing with Neinzul Youngster. It's scary early game but get easier later. Also I just realized that even though Starfleet Commander has 1.25 and uses 3 times the normal number of Starships. It doesn't get the extra Starships for free. It "pays" for them so there's less other ships. Still.. I think those Starships are a bit scary. Especially early game.

Zenith Descendant Moderate --> Harder
Disagree, but mainly because they recently lost the +40 AIP bonus on waves (patch 5.081), and Bombards got nerfed in waves (33% less spawn).

Oh I missed the removal of +40 AIP. Well thanks for telling me. In that case Moderate is appropriate.

One would be sufficient.

And all of the cheese.

Yep. Was gonna say the same.


Oh and I edited the Mantis page. I removed the parts that "didn't belong into Mantis".

[Pluto]

I'd be interested in being able to cross the AI's.  Such as applying the effects of both onto the AI, simultaneously.  That, and applying technologist as an ai plot instead of a separate AI.

[Martyn van Buren]

Chiming in to defend the Neinzul Youngster as moderate.  I've never tried 10/10 --- I think I once started a 9/9 game and got slaughtered about half an hour in --- but I have played against it on 7.6 or 8 a few times and I find it to be an eminently manageable foe.  It means switching more from tractor turrets to gravity and building more log stations, but it really wasn't that bad.  It's actually one of my favorite AI types for games I'm hoping to win --- the big waves do create an interesting challenge and raise the pressure a bit, but certainly not into the scary range.

I could believe it's different for the really high difficulties, but I feel pretty sure we want the categorization to be accurate for new-player difficulties more than for the veteran levels.

[zoutzakje]

Hmm, I like your idea of improving AI types or adjusting their category, but I can't say I agree with all of them. And yeah, if it's going to be changed, it should be changed based on 7/7 experiences, not 9/9 or 10/10.

I'll list the AI types I have something to say about.
All the Easy ones seem right where they belong. Gravity Drill just makes everything slow, but play it right and those drills can help you enormously with defense. So I think it's right.

I'm not too sure about the Train Master as I have never played against it. If they really are currently easy (and I can't remember them being in the easy list), then they might have to be moderate now at least. Trains are much more dangerous now than they used to be.

Camouflager is not not that hard but annoying, which is why it's on moderate. You don't know where what is until it shoots at you, which can be quite a pain.

Counter Spy is right where it is. Scouting is essential in this game and not being able to properly scout worlds and keep them scouted is a major annoyance and can mess up your games pretty badly. It's not about whether counter spies are easy to deal with, it's about being able to properly scout or not.

Mad Bomber is a type I've never really played against so can't give my opinion on that one. I have started a 9/9 Mad Bomber and Raid Engine game though so we'll see where that goes. I'm expecting the Raid Engine will be much harder to deal with.

Neinzul Youngster sends more ships, but they are all ships that die faster so I dunno. I believe most of them have tractor immunity but like mentioned before, grav turrets are their hard counter.

One-way Doormaster is right where it is. Yeah BHM's cost AIP on death, but you seem to forget that you don't have to kill them. Just capture the planet and the BHM is yours. If you don't want to capture one of it worlds and just neuter it, send just enough amount of force in so scrapping your fleet leftovers won't cost you to much. And even if you do decide to kill them all, it doesn't matter much in a 7/7 game, which is the balance point after all.

Speed Racer is one I'm not sure about. Haven't fought it enough to judge whether it should be hard or moderate.

Spireling is good where it is now. Spireling give most players more trouble than most other moderates. Tractor platforms, blade spawners, SSB's... He might even have to go to hard.

Haven't played against Starfleet commander.

The rest of the moderates seem good.

Alarmist. Hmm... I agree that a single Alarm is not much of a threat, but keep in mind that when playing against this AI type, it's easy (and often unavoidable) to trigger multiple Alarms at once. This could get quite nasty.

I completely agree with you on the Attritioner. Personally I would even put it on easy right now. It does little to annoy. The Spireling I played against in that same 7/7 game gave me much more trouble. I think the Attritioner needs a serious buff. With your idea of having it protected by command stations, do you mean give the Attritioner units external invincibility until command is destroyed? That would indeed make stuff like neutering much harder for that AI type and I would like that.

Golemite is exactly where he belongs. The golems are either easy or hard to deal with, depending on the situation. Imagine fighting against a Black Widow golem while the AI has unlocked Tractor Platforms. Yeah that's gonna get nasty no matter what you try. Or pissing off an Artillery golem which then decides to take a few shots at your home command. Most golems actually have to be avoided early game, until you got some superweapons yourself. Or at least until you got mk III bombers.

Never played a full game against Radar Jammer so I can't say for sure, but I do think they should be moderate too yeah. Attacking planets might be somewhat harder but capture all those Radar Jammers and it'll make defense significantly easier.

Spire Hammer also seemed a bit weak, last time I played against it. But I think they were meant to be hard, something just didn't go right.

Scorched Earth is right where it is. It hinders you from making easy progress and you have to pick your targets carefully, but the AI type itself isn't really dangerous. 7/7 games with one Scorched Earth are definitely winnable, they just require a different tactic. No I don't see them as Red AI type.

Special Forces Captain... I have never played against it but I'm actually thinking it should be a Red AI type now. SF from a regular 7/7 game can already be deadly. The Captain just makes it worse. I would even go as far as to change it's name to Special Forces General. It's a high ranked officer you're dealing with here.

I agree with you on Crafty Spire. It's tough, but it doesn't deserve a Red name. Heroic does something similair and is much, much harder. AI types like Raid Engine and The Core laugh at Crafty Spire.

Well that's it. The other AI types either seem good to me or I have too little knowledge about them to judge where they should belong.

[Fluffiest]

One-Way Doormaster might be an AI that's quite tame at low difficulty levels but becomes an absolute horror at 10.

Would people be interested in the addition of Neinzul Technologist, Zenith Technologist, and Spire Technologist as Tech versions of the Neinzul Youngster, Zenith Descendant, and Spireling? (and at this point, should we just ask for a "Technologist" AI plot?)

[KDR_11k]

Special Forces Captain... I have never played against it but I'm actually thinking it should be a Red AI type now. SF from a regular 7/7 game can already be deadly. The Captain just makes it worse. I would even go as far as to change it's name to Special Forces General. It's a high ranked officer you're dealing with here.

I don't think red is warranted, while the SF may be overwhelming with an SFC AI it merely stops your attacks, it does not attack your planets.

[zoutzakje]

One-Way Doormaster might be an AI that's quite tame at low difficulty levels but becomes an absolute horror at 10.

Would people be interested in the addition of Neinzul Technologist, Zenith Technologist, and Spire Technologist as Tech versions of the Neinzul Youngster, Zenith Descendant, and Spireling? (and at this point, should we just ask for a "Technologist" AI plot?)

my idea exactly. I've been hoping for something like this for quite some time now. I would like to see technologists for every single AI type (and maybe Core versions too, for the suicidal people among us) and this would be ideal as plots. However, only if there are going to be achievements for every techno and core version. I'm a real achievement hunter and that's pretty much the only reason I play against those kind of AI's.

At KDR_11k:
yeah that's right, forgot about that. The current Red types we got are much harder than some giant SF force.