New AI Modifier Idea

[TechSY730]

Just came up with a AI modifier idea, but I thought I would post it here for feedback before sticking it on mantis.

Basically, when the modifier is on, instead of using normal attack wave logic, a variant of the Exo wave logic would be used to chose the ships. This is basically "schizophrenic waves" on "steroids", allowing for variety not only over fleet ships, but across starships, guardians, and possibly even Mk. levels (depending on how it is implemented)

Before you panic, this would scale more or less roughly the same as current ship selection logic.
Like the first wave, with the AIP at 10, the AI would get so few "exo-points" that they would have no choice but to use mostly Mk. I ships in smallish numbers, or maybe cut into their numbers quite a bit and throw in one or two Mk. IIs

The advantage would be mixed Mk. waves, more variety with non-fleet ships (possibly, sacrificing a couple of fleet ships for guardians, or even a bunch a fleet ships for more starships). At moderate AIPs, you could even start getting spirecraft. At high AIPs, you might even get Golems (though we might want to blacklist golems and up for the purposes of waves).

Note, this would be for wave composition only. The behavior of ships that enter would be the same. And also, how the ships enter will be the same (spawn wherever and be freed if cross planet waves on, anywhere without warp jamming for warp jumper, and for all else, the normal warp gate full or adjacent to warp gate full planet only normally)

Also, only attack waves, counter-attack post waves, and raid engines would be effected.
Scrap waves, CPAs, and defensive reinforcement would still use classic logic.

Possibly, the normal exo-wave behaviour could be used if cross-planet waves are turned on and/or if there are no eligible places to spawn to (like no adjacent warp gates) and the AI is forced to use cross-planet wave behavior.

How to convert the "wave points" to "Exo points" is something I am unsure about, and also how Mk. caps for attacks would work with it, if at all.
Also, I'm not sure if it should be a modifier (both AIs or none) or a Plot (one, both, or no AIs). Because other wave modifier options are under AI modifiers, it seems like it should go there.
Also, not sure if it should be for all waves, or only a random chance for some of them. Possibly two different modifiers, one only has a chance per wave, the other does it for all waves.

[Commiesalami]

I actually like this a lot, It also solves the difficulties of having to fight some 600+ MkI missle frigates at AI Progress 199.

[TechSY730]

A couple of AI specific points.

1. AI specific wave multipliers would need to be factored into how much exo-points they get
2. If the AI has unlocked Neinzul youngling ships (either by their type or a normal unlock by the AI), then younglings should NOT be blacklisted for these waves, unlike normal exo-waves
3. If the AI is the Spire Hammer, then the Spire capital ships they can use should not be blacklisted for these waves, unlike normal waves, or possibly always just get one "free" spire captial starship in its waves.
4. If the AI is the golemite, then the AI should be able to insert in the significantly weaker golemite versions of these golems for a decent amount less than the exo-wave versions of the golems (and not have these weakened golems blacklisted if other AIs have exo-golems blacklisted for these waves) (this is assuming the golemite can use golems in attack waves. If not, ignore this point)
5. If the AI is the Starship commander, then it should either get a "discount" on the exo-wave cost of starships, or it should always just get one "free" starship in its waves.
6. If the AI is the Crafty Spire, then it should either get a "discount" on the exo-wave cost of spirecraft, or it should always (or sometimes) just get one "free" spirecraft in its waves.
7. If the AI is a non-turtle Technologist, then it needs a decent multiplier to its exo-wave size if wave Mk. caps do not get factored in normally.

EDIT:

Also, the random multiplier that the AI gets in the classic logic would also be reflected here. Some exos would be slightly tougher or slightly weaker then the current AIP would suggest, just like the classic logic does.

[TechSY730]

I actually like this a lot, It also solves the difficulties of having to fight some 600+ MkI missle frigates at AI Progress 199.

You can sort of fix this already with "schizophrenic" waves, which makes the AI consider all of the fleet ships it has unlocked, not just one of them.

[Wanderer]

I actually like this a lot, It also solves the difficulties of having to fight some 600+ MkI missle frigates at AI Progress 199.

You can sort of fix this already with "schizophrenic" waves, which makes the AI consider all of the fleet ships it has unlocked, not just one of them.

It's weird, but because of specialist ships like the missile frigate AoE immunity, I find schizos EASIER.  That and I'm not wasting turret bonuses constantly, because everyone's got a 'good' target.

[TechSY730]

I actually like this a lot, It also solves the difficulties of having to fight some 600+ MkI missle frigates at AI Progress 199.

You can sort of fix this already with "schizophrenic" waves, which makes the AI consider all of the fleet ships it has unlocked, not just one of them.

It's weird, but because of specialist ships like the missile frigate AoE immunity, I find schizos EASIER.  That and I'm not wasting turret bonuses constantly, because everyone's got a 'good' target.

Sure, all of your defending stuff has a good target, but then again, so does the incoming wave (or rather, for any counter for ship type X you are using to defend, the attacking force probably has a ship type Y that counters your counter).
But then again, only until the mid to late-mid game does the incoming wave actually start becoming threatening. (at least in single player)

Also, as exo-wave composition logic would also introduce variety, you would still have the same problem, though admittedly, the variety would not just be over fleet ships, but over guardians and starships as well.

[Hearteater]

It's weird, but because of specialist ships like the missile frigate AoE immunity, I find schizos EASIER.  That and I'm not wasting turret bonuses constantly, because everyone's got a 'good' target.

I agree, schizo waves are easier.  And early game they can be smaller too since they don't get the same minimum size normal waves do (see step 9).

[TechSY730]

This idea seems to be getting some good support. Should I go ahead and toss it on Mantis?

[Mánagarmr]

This idea seems to be getting some good support. Should I go ahead and toss it on Mantis?

Yes, absolutely.

[TechSY730]

Posted on Mantis. Vote up if you like it.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6291

I understand that this would require a lot of balance work to get the "conversion rate" right, and thus may have to wait and become a feature in the next expansion.

[Nodor]

I love the idea.   I enjoy defeating the exo-galactic strike forces.. but waves are boring.

Also, speaking of expansions..  once Valley Without Wind is done.. can we plug for another AI War expansion or even an "AI War 2"?   I would like more excuses to pound through bits of the galaxy smashing planets and stealing them from the AI to build different toys..  so I could smash the AI differently.


One option would be to break through the core wormhole gates the AI "used" and attack the AI on the far side.

[Martyn van Buren]

I would love to find out something more about what the AI is doing out there beyond the galaxy.  Also this idea sounds very cool, if also seriously challenging.  Voting up!

[keith.lamothe]

One version of "what is the AI doing out there" is covered in the latter parts of the FS journals

[Martyn van Buren]

Oh really?  I have never got to the end of it.  Right, then, that's my weekend!

[keith.lamothe]

Oh really?  I have never got to the end of it.  Right, then, that's my weekend!

If you got to 4 cities you saw part of it; it's the "Shard Recovered!" journal entry for the one used to build the 4th city