Nebula battles balancing

[Radiant Phoenix]

Just to be clear you want an optional speed boost + optional range boost? *Sound confused* I can see you getting decent range from missile module but speed boosting module? What do you mean by that?

I mean that at least some hulls should be faster than the nebula ships, and at least a significant number of modules should have longer range than them. (speed boosting modules weren't something that occurred to me)

For example, we could change the speeds of the shadow ships like this:

Hull	New speed	Old speed
Neinzul	300	157
Human	200	150
Zenith	150	143
Spire	100	136

(note that all speeds in nebulas are halved)

This makes it so that you might actually consider a hull other than Zenith (for killing ships, because even the battleship will only overkill against light ships) or Neinzul (because radar dampening less than the range of missiles lets you stomp Ultra-Heavies, such as starbases) in nebulas once you've unlocked those.

Drones should be of comparable speed (e.g., Slicer drone 300, Interceptor drone 200, bomber drone 150) to keep up with the shadow ship, or faster (e.g., slicer drone 1000, Interceptor drone 700, Bomber 400) to maybe actually fight things the shadow ship wasn't already fighting.

For comparison, hostile nebula ships currently generally vary in speed from about 140 to about 190 (actually 145 to 185 AFAICT, and it's based on faction not ship class)


---
Ranges

The base modules could be re-ranged like this:

Module	New range	Old range
Needler	10000	7000
Laser	20000	9000
MLRS	15000	8000
Missile	30000	16000

(recall that all ranges are halved in nebulae)

For comparison, some enemy ships:

Faction	Light ship	Medium ship	Large ship	Starbase	Large starbase
Sorrow's Fang	18000	8000	16000	24000	26000
Dark Spire	19500	12000	17500	26000	28500
Citadel Ascendant	18000	2500	16000	24000	26000
Neinzul Astrid	16000	7000	4000	21500	23000

[Vyndicu]

I already treat neinzul as an unique playstyle in nebula scenario because it is the ONLY thing you can bring that can repair your friendly starbase to keep them alive far longer. As long you keep them out of combat and some scenario that is just not easy to do.

As for the zenith/human/spire differential. I treat spire as micro-intensive because of the main beam not doing full dps on small targets but has fewer small slot. Zenith is not as bad on micro due to energy wave ammo. I don't remember what zenith get in way of small/large slots. Human is general jack of all trade.

I would be not willing to support speed boost module replacing firepower unless we get a full array of "utility" modules + utility only module were it make sense for each faction. The reason why I don't want utility to share same module spot as firepower ones is that AI already have plenty of "anti-champion" tool and it would not make sense to give up firepower for speed against gravity driller AI for instance.

Example: Neinzul get a module that allow one drone bay to spawn at 1.5 rate or more powerful drone at cost of shield strength. Spire sacrifice 25 percent on the main gun to split it into 40 beam like what refuge outpost has to reduce overkill. Just some ideas.

[Cinth]

1-4, if I'm not wrong. But I do recall the Dyson level consistently boosting me up about ten levels (e.g. from about 5 to 16).

I'm talking about on completion (the same time you receive your module reward.  That, I believe, caps at 5 levels.  Dysons give good XP during the scenario, and if you can dominate that one, you can really gain a bunch of levels.  When I mentioned two rewards, that does include getting new hulls (pretty sure).  If you do the duplicate scenarios then you can get all the modules.

So far my best effort across 15 scenarios is lvl 83

[Cinth]

Just to be clear you want an optional speed boost + optional range boost? *Sound confused* I can see you getting decent range from missile module but speed boosting module? What do you mean by that?

I mean that at least some hulls should be faster than the nebula ships, and at least a significant number of modules should have longer range than them. (speed boosting modules weren't something that occurred to me)

For example, we could change the speeds of the shadow ships like this:

Hull	New speed	Old speed
Neinzul	300	157
Human	200	150
Zenith	150	143
Spire	100	136

(note that all speeds in nebulas are halved)

This makes it so that you might actually consider a hull other than Zenith (for killing ships, because even the battleship will only overkill against light ships) or Neinzul (because radar dampening less than the range of missiles lets you stomp Ultra-Heavies, such as starbases) in nebulas once you've unlocked those.

Drones should be of comparable speed (e.g., Slicer drone 300, Interceptor drone 200, bomber drone 150) to keep up with the shadow ship, or faster (e.g., slicer drone 1000, Interceptor drone 700, Bomber 400) to maybe actually fight things the shadow ship wasn't already fighting.

For comparison, hostile nebula ships currently generally vary in speed from about 140 to about 190 (actually 145 to 185 AFAICT, and it's based on faction not ship class)


---
Ranges

The base modules could be re-ranged like this:

Module	New range	Old range
Needler	10000	7000
Laser	20000	9000
MLRS	15000	8000
Missile	30000	16000

(recall that all ranges are halved in nebulae)

For comparison, some enemy ships:

Faction	Light ship	Medium ship	Large ship	Starbase	Large starbase
Sorrow's Fang	18000	8000	16000	24000	26000
Dark Spire	19500	12000	17500	26000	28500
Citadel Ascendant	18000	2500	16000	24000	26000
Neinzul Astrid	16000	7000	4000	21500	23000

This would make champions very overpowered outside of nebula scenarios.  If anything, since gravity effects were changed, we might can get Keith to consider backing off the speed penalty portion (a little).  You can not convince me that weapon ranges need to be that high.  With missiles at that range you could effectively out range everything. 

Pretty much everything you have here would break the way you are supposed to play scenarios. It's supposed to be a tactical exercise.  Every action you make or don't make, is supposed to have an impact on the outcome. 

[Cinth]

I already treat neinzul as an unique playstyle in nebula scenario because it is the ONLY thing you can bring that can repair your friendly starbase to keep them alive far longer. As long you keep them out of combat and some scenario that is just not easy to do.

As for the zenith/human/spire differential. I treat spire as micro-intensive because of the main beam not doing full dps on small targets but has fewer small slot. Zenith is not as bad on micro due to energy wave ammo. I don't remember what zenith get in way of small/large slots. Human is general jack of all trade.

I would be not willing to support speed boost module replacing firepower unless we get a full array of "utility" modules + utility only module were it make sense for each faction. The reason why I don't want utility to share same module spot as firepower ones is that AI already have plenty of "anti-champion" tool and it would not make sense to give up firepower for speed against gravity driller AI for instance.

Example: Neinzul get a module that allow one drone bay to spawn at 1.5 rate or more powerful drone at cost of shield strength. Spire sacrifice 25 percent on the main gun to split it into 40 beam like what refuge outpost has to reduce overkill. Just some ideas.

Human hulls: Small slot heavy
Zenith hulls: Balanced in both slot types
Neinzul hulls: Low slot counts but has lots of special attributes (rogue like)
Spire hulls: Heavy siege weapon (aren't most Spire capitol ships?)

The champs utility would best be placed as active abilities (like projected shields, repair, decoy and tachyon).

[Vyndicu]

Human hulls: Small slot heavy
Zenith hulls: Balanced in both slot types
Neinzul hulls: Low slot counts but has lots of special attributes (rogue like)
Spire hulls: Heavy siege weapon (aren't most Spire capitol ships?)

The champs utility would best be placed as active abilities (like projected shields, repair, decoy and tachyon).

I don't really feel like most racial champion do really shine that much with their abilities much. Just look at how different spire corvette vs riot starship or spire ram *the bonus one not asteroid version* vs zenith shredder for instance. I feel neinzul champion is the only one to "stand out" from the rest of the champions because it lack a projected shield ability. I believe all champion eventually get tachyon at BB level and shield is common enough.

Racial module on the other hand do have some strong enough bonus to make allowance for them being locked to only a few of the champion slot layout. However I do not feel they do necessary make the champion unique enough on their own either.

[Radiant Phoenix]

This would make champions very overpowered outside of nebula scenarios.  If anything, since gravity effects were changed, we might can get Keith to consider backing off the speed penalty portion (a little).  You can not convince me that weapon ranges need to be that high.  With missiles at that range you could effectively out range everything. 

Pretty much everything you have here would break the way you are supposed to play scenarios. It's supposed to be a tactical exercise.  Every action you make or don't make, is supposed to have an impact on the outcome.

If you removed the speed and range halving in nebulas, you could halve all of those numbers.

The intended points were these:

• The different hull types should have speeds that differ by a noticeable amount (a 5% speed change is not particularly noticeable; a 25% speed change is).
• Some of the hulls should be noticeably faster than the normal ships in the nebulas.
• Some weapons should have ranges longer than the normal ships in the nebulas.

EDIT: Also, the Spire hull should do more max DPS than the zenith hull because it normally doesn't do its full damage

[Cinth]

Human hulls: Small slot heavy
Zenith hulls: Balanced in both slot types
Neinzul hulls: Low slot counts but has lots of special attributes (rogue like)
Spire hulls: Heavy siege weapon (aren't most Spire capitol ships?)

The champs utility would best be placed as active abilities (like projected shields, repair, decoy and tachyon).

I don't really feel like most racial champion do really shine that much with their abilities much. Just look at how different spire corvette vs riot starship or spire ram *the bonus one not asteroid version* vs zenith shredder for instance. I feel neinzul champion is the only one to "stand out" from the rest of the champions because it lack a projected shield ability. I believe all champion eventually get tachyon at BB level and shield is common enough.

Racial module on the other hand do have some strong enough bonus to make allowance for them being locked to only a few of the champion slot layout. However I do not feel they do necessary make the champion unique enough on their own either.

Human, Spire, and Zenith all share the same two actives, Shields and Tachyons.  The Neinzul is very unique with repairs and a decoy.  To me, to make the types stand out more, would be through the active abilities. 

[TechSY730]

The champion abilities are in serious need of a rebalance anyways...

[Cinth]

The intended points were these:

• The different hull types should have speeds that differ by a noticeable amount (a 5% speed change is not particularly noticeable; a 25% speed change is).

In a game where you have 8 individual players playing the champs, you would have issues.

• Some of the hulls should be noticeably faster than the normal ships in the nebulas.

And then the fastest champ becomes the only one used.

• Some weapons should have ranges longer than the normal ships in the nebulas.

If there was but ONE module that out ranged nebula ships and bases (like you have missiles up above) then it would be the only module used.

EDIT: Also, the Spire hull should do more max DPS than the zenith hull because it normally doesn't do its full damage

Look again. The base damage on the Spire hulls should be 2x that of the Zenith hulls (taking of the main weapon only).

[Vyndicu]

Human, Spire, and Zenith all share the same two actives, Shields and Tachyons.  The Neinzul is very unique with repairs and a decoy.  To me, to make the types stand out more, would be through the active abilities.

I don't think ability is the right place to to make them feel uniqueness. I think a such limited resource should be left intact as it is. It is bad enough that 99 percent of the times I use champion abilities it is micro-intensive. It can end up being wasteful if you had to re-apply due to bad placement. It would be even worse if we mess with it.

Instead adding more utility slot that can only mount various form of utility module with some racial champion having more and some less just like small/large slots. I think they should be all available from the beginning. I am not sure if we need to reduce number of XP or increase points grant on level up to compensate for more modules unlocks.

@TechSY730

What do you meant that they are in need of rebalance?

[Toranth]

Human, Spire, and Zenith all share the same two actives, Shields and Tachyons.  The Neinzul is very unique with repairs and a decoy.  To me, to make the types stand out more, would be through the active abilities.

Minor quibble: Human Champions actually get the Shadow Munitions Booster (+30%) as their second ability, not Tachyon Burst.

I do agree that I want more Champion abilities, and more variety in the hull-types... Very minor differences in speed, armor, HP could be done without too much balancing issues, but major differences would break too much, I think.  That leaves Champion Abilities - and there seriously needs to be some improvement there.

[Cinth]

I do agree that I want more Champion abilities, and more variety in the hull-types... Very minor differences in speed, armor, HP could be done without too much balancing issues, but major differences would break too much, I think.  That leaves Champion Abilities - and there seriously needs to be some improvement there.

Shows how often I use the Human champs

I think if we had more actives, then it would broaden the amount of choices we had in the scenarios.  The hardest part about making any new abilities though, is making them viable when compared to the projected shields. 

[Radiant Phoenix]

In a game where you have 8 individual players playing the champs, you would have issues.

Why?

And then the fastest champ becomes the only one used.

The idea is that each one would have a 'role'

For example: (what I was thinking)

Hull	Role in Nebulas	Role in Galaxy
Neinzul	Fix mistakes (catch breakaways)	Disruption[1]
Human	Fight waves in neutral territory	Clear out ship buildup
Zenith	The Mario, but needs to predict where to go	Kill scary things
Spire	A siege engine that hunts bases	Fly into a system and smash

Obviously, there would need to be module support for this.

If there was but ONE module that out ranged nebula ships and bases (like you have missiles up above) then it would be the only module used.

I don't place much value on outranging ordinary ships with my champion (shorter range than them just feels like adding insult to injury), but it's true that outranging bases is huge.

Look again. The base damage on the Spire hulls should be 2x that of the Zenith hulls (taking of the main weapon only).

No it doesn't. Spire photon lances fire for 2 seconds before entering reload. That halves the DPS.

---
EDIT: Clarified Neinzul role
[1]: Specifically, cause trouble that will stick around and disrupt the AI's operations in a system for a while.

[Cinth]

In a game where you have 8 individual players playing the champs, you would have issues.

Why?
Who wants to wait on the guy who plays the Spire champ to catch up?  The ships already move at different speeds.  If you change it to much then you have to rebalance every scenario to the new values.

And then the fastest champ becomes the only one used.

The idea is that each one would have a 'role'

For example: (what I was thinking)

Hull	Role in Nebulas	Role in Galaxy
Neinzul	Fix mistakes (catch breakaways)	Disruption[1]
Human	Fight waves in neutral territory	Clear out ship buildup
Zenith	The Mario, but needs to predict where to go	Kill scary things
Spire	A siege engine that hunts bases	Fly into a system and smash

Obviously, there would need to be module support for this.
The all have purpose. Human hulls make the best escorts. Spire are the siege engines already (look at the modules). Zenith are the in between for spire and human. Neinzul weren't specifically meant to be useful in the nebula. They excel at bringing a trainload of pain to the AI.

If there was but ONE module that out ranged nebula ships and bases (like you have missiles up above) then it would be the only module used.

I don't place much value on outranging ordinary ships with my champion (shorter range than them just feels like adding insult to injury), but it's true that outranging bases is huge.
It makes how you choose modules matter. It makes you decide on how to approach the scenario.

Look again. The base damage on the Spire hulls should be 2x that of the Zenith hulls (taking of the main weapon only).

No it doesn't. Spire photon lances fire for 2 seconds before entering reload. That halves the DPS.
Just checked, yeah. I thought it got the 2 on 1 off that the corvette and SS got a few updates ago.