Nebula battles balancing

[Aquohn]

1-4, if I'm not wrong. But I do recall the Dyson level consistently boosting me up about ten levels (e.g. from about 5 to 16).

I'm talking about on completion (the same time you receive your module reward.  That, I believe, caps at 5 levels.  Dysons give good XP during the scenario, and if you can dominate that one, you can really gain a bunch of levels.  When I mentioned two rewards, that does include getting new hulls (pretty sure).  If you do the duplicate scenarios then you can get all the modules.

So far my best effort across 15 scenarios is lvl 83

I've never played multiple champions before. How do you get repeat scenarios?

[Faulty Logic]

How do you get repeat scenarios?

You play an 80-planet or bigger map and type "cmd:allow duplicate nebula scenarios" into the chat. This doesn't count as cheating, and doesn't need any synchronization shenanigans.

[Histidine]

I haven't had any problems with the nebula ramping response since the beta myself, but maybe the logic is going wonky somewhere.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Who wants to wait on the guy who plays the Spire champ to catch up?  The ships already move at different speeds.  If you change it to much then you have to rebalance every scenario to the new values.

Oh, do you mean getting to the Nebulas?

The all have purpose. Human hulls make the best escorts. Spire are the siege engines already (look at the modules). Zenith are the in between for spire and human. Neinzul weren't specifically meant to be useful in the nebula. They excel at bringing a trainload of pain to the AI.

The Spire hull gets one more heavy slot than the Zenith, has to stop moving to fire, and has to settle for the plasma cannon instead of the missile launcher. The Zenith hull is the best in nebulas, far and away, because it can kill bases well, and its main gun can hit ships.

Let's compare:

Hull	Raw/Bonus DPS per hull size	Small slots(FF/DD/CC/BB)	Large slots
Human	150k/750k	6/12/16/20	2/3/4/5
Zenith	360k	6/8/10/12	2?/4/6/8
Spire	/360k	2/4/6/8	3/5/7/9
Neinzul	135k/675k	?5/6/?7/8	?/2/?/5

Note that the human ship only gets a bonus against the smallest ships, and the neinzul ship only gets a bonus against medium ships.

A typical light module does 7kdps/mark with an x5 bonus against its target; for heavy slots the Spire ship gets the 10kdps/mark plasma cannon with a 10x vs heavy and ultra-heavy (100k/mark), the zenith and human ships get the 60kdps/mark missile launcher with an x5 bonus vs ultra-heavy (300k/mark)

During nebulas, the DPS for the ships looks like this: (kdps)

Situation	Frigate	Destroyer	Cruiser
Human vs Ships	690	1110	1530
Zenith vs Ships	900	1530	2160
Human vs Starbase	930	1470	2010
Zenith vs Starbase	1260	2070	2880
Spire vs Starbase	860	1470	2080

Assumptions:

• Against ships, the light module does 35kdps/mark
• Against starbases, the light module is an armor polarizer doing about 25kdps/mark or a paralyzer doing an average of 15.5kdps/mark
• One heavy slot is used for a shield
• Heavy slot items are either missile launchers or plasma cannons, as appropriate

So, by my math, for nebulae, you really should only ever use the Zenith champion once you get it.

Thus, in addition to the speed changes I proposed (200/100/150/300), I think:

• The Human champion should get a damage bonus of x5 vs Light, Medium, and Heavy, which would give it much better numbers in the hunting-ships department (very noticeably better than the other two).
• The Spire champion should get a doubling or so of its damage number, which would make it comparable to the Zenith starship at hunting starbases.
• The Zenith champion can mostly stay as-is.
• The Neinzul champion should get some ability that actually slows down nebula ships so other champions can catch up. (Engine damage, coupled with removing nebula ship immunity to engine damage?)

It makes how you choose modules matter. It makes you decide on how to approach the scenario.

Wait, are you saying this is an effect of making some modules have very long range? If so, I think that's a good thing.

That said, I'm not as attached to the module changes as I am to the ship changes.

EDIT: Additionally, for these changes, we might want to change some hull types.

For example:

Hull	Type	Reasoning
Human	Heavy	None of the nebula ships get a bonus against it
Spire	Ultra-Heavy	Not vulnerable to starbases, but wants support to keep the light ships away
Zenith	Neutro	It's what the Zenith Starship has, and it completes the symmetry of, "each ship is vulnerable to one type of nebula ship"
Neinzul	Medium	The nebula ships it worries about are the ones that your starbases least need to worry about

(Just changing the Spire champion's hull type is also an option)

[Cinth]

Not arguing with the Zenith being the best hull for nebulae. Plasma is beastly against shields and AI ships. Spire hull is pretty much a siege engine.  Look at the other Spire capitol ships (FS line).

Your speed changes make the Neinzul hull OP and completely destroys the viability of the Spire hull.  If anything the human hulls could get a speed boost ability to accentuate the escort role.

The Spire hulls need the 2 on, 1 reload. That would put its damage above the Zenith hulls.

The human champs main gun doesn't need to have a 5x vs "ships" since the hulls have a lot of light module slots.  If you need to have those bonuses then load the appropriate modules.

The limited speed and ranges of the champs force you to make hard choices.  That's the point of the scenarios. Each hull has a use as it is now, and if anything, they might need a little tweaking.  What you have here would require balancing of everything involved with the champs and scenarios.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Not arguing with the Zenith being the best hull for nebulae. Plasma is beastly against shields and AI ships. Spire hull is pretty much a siege engine.  Look at the other Spire capitol ships (FS line).

Which is why the Spire champion should be changed to reflect that, by making it better than the others at being a siege engine.

Your speed changes make the Neinzul hull OP and completely destroys the viability of the Spire hull.  If anything the human hulls could get a speed boost ability to accentuate the escort role.

Doubling the DPS of the spire hull and reducing its speed by about 30% would probably make it better, IMO. Changing its hull type to something that  starbases didn't get a bonus against (which I added in an edit because the 'edit' menu didn't show your reply) on top of that would make it my ship of choice in Nebulas.

I don't think the Neinzul hull would become OP (in Nebulas, at least) with the changes I proposed, especially if weapon ranges weren't increased, but I'm less confident of that than I am that the Spire hull would become better. I would like the Neinzul hull to have a role in nebulas too.

The Spire hulls need the 2 on, 1 reload. That would put its damage above the Zenith hulls.

No, that wouldn't be enough, because the Zenith hull gets better modules. Doubling the damage value (thus doubling the DPS) and leaving modules the same gives the Spire champion the following DPS numbers vs starbases: (Old Zenith numbers included for comparison)

Hull \ size	frigate	destroyer	cruiser
Spire vs Starbase	1220	2190	3160
Zenith vs Starbase	1260	2070	2880

The human champs main gun doesn't need to have a 5x vs "ships" since the hulls have a lot of light module slots.  If you need to have those bonuses then load the appropriate modules.

I'm already assuming the appropriate bonuses, because without them, the Human champion is basically worthless.


Here is a comparison of the Human champion as-is Zenith champion as-is:

Hull \ size	frigate	destroyer	cruiser
Human vs ships	690	1110	1530
Zenith with no bonuses vs ships	564	1026	1488
Zenith with no light modules vs Ships	420	900	1320
Human with no bonuses vs ships	354	606	858

I think it should be clear just how outclassed the Human champion is here, which is why I think it needs some buffs.

Here are the numbers including all modules with my proposed change to the Human champion's multipliers:

Hull \ size	frigate	destroyer	cruiser
Zenith vs Ships	900	1530	2160
Human vs ships	1290	2310	3330

(Note that in all cases, light modules are assumed to get an x5 multiplier vs ships)

The limited speed and ranges of the champs force you to make hard choices.  That's the point of the scenarios. Each hull has a use as it is now, and if anything, they might need a little tweaking.  What you have here would require balancing of everything involved with the champs and scenarios.

If I had all hulls and all modules unlocked now, I would only ever use the Zenith hull in nebulas, and either the Neinzul or Zenith hull outside (because Insanity Inducers and cloaking are good, and so are drones and paralyzers).

At any hull class, I would prefer to enter a Nebula with max-level IREs and some combination of drones, shields, and missile launchers on a zenith hull over anything else that currently exists.

[Cinth]

Zenith w/ missiles, lasers, and a shield or 2 (based on size). That will win in every scenario.  Yes there are better for each individual scenario, but those depend on unlocks.

The Human hulls take a different approach to the nebula scenarios than say the Zenith.  Fitted out to escort, you should focus on just the enemy ships.  Throw shields on your allied and let them gather to a critical mass.  The Human hull excels at this strategy.

The Spire needs stationary targets and stuff under glass.  You don't get a lot of that in scenarios.  Plasma also has an AoE component that pushes the damage it does up. 

[Radiant Phoenix]

The Human hulls take a different approach to the nebula scenarios than say the Zenith.  Fitted out to escort, you should focus on just the enemy ships.  Throw shields on your allied and let them gather to a critical mass.  The Human hull excels at this strategy.

I think the Zenith does that better right now.

The Spire needs stationary targets and stuff under glass.  You don't get a lot of that in scenarios.

If the Spire hull did noticeably more DPS, it would be worth using in nebulas.

Plasma also has an AoE component that pushes the damage it does up.

Not against starbases.

[Winge]

You didn't mention Neinzul, although I know why (much better out of nebulae than in).  That said, the Neinzul is the only Champion that can heal starbases, rather than just shield them (unless Keith changed something).  Not that I would recommend the Neinzul for nebulae...I prefer Zenith, myself.

[Radiant Phoenix]

You didn't mention Neinzul, although I know why (much better out of nebulae than in).  That said, the Neinzul is the only Champion that can heal starbases, rather than just shield them (unless Keith changed something).  Not that I would recommend the Neinzul for nebulae...I prefer Zenith, myself.

Well, my proposal would have the intent of making the Neinzul champion basically have the role of, "running around putting out fires," when in the nebula, aided by its (proposed) superior ability to run around. (50% faster than the next fastest ship)

(I've mostly abandoned the idea of changing the modules right now, and am focusing on changing the hulls)

[Histidine]

Wait, champion plasma siege cannon has 10k base DPS? Seriously? Combined with the fact that it can't fire on small ships, it sounds like it needs a major buff.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Wait, champion plasma siege cannon has 10k base DPS? Seriously? Combined with the fact that it can't fire on small ships, it sounds like it needs a major buff.

It has a 10x mutiplier vs Heavy, Ultra-Heavy, Structural, and Turret, and does AOE to some units under forcefields, but yeah, the relative suckiness of their large modules is a point against spire champions.

[Toranth]

I just had a most surprising Nebula experience.
I messed up horribly, and lost Nebulas 3 and 4.  At that point, I just said "Frick it!" and went on to deliberately lose the rest, so I could see what all the 'you lost' messages were.  However, I was unable to do so.
See, in Nebula 6, the Sorrow's Fang and Astrid vs Grey Spire, Miners, and Shattered Pillar multiway battle, I entered the nebula, sat back, and did nothing.  However, the allies won.  Handily.  Without my assistance at all.

I suspect the problem was the 'anti-snowballing' effect we've talked about here.  The allies started with only 1 base each, while the enemies each had 3 small starbases plus the large one.  The spawns were so unbalanced that the enemies were completely routed.  They could barely even scratch the allies' paint.  Over 100 allied ships survived.

So, while the anti-snowballing code did 'help' me, it actually made me utterly irrelevant.  I think that's a good sign things need to be turned down a bit.

[Cinth]

In that exact scenario with 8 champions, you cannot sit and watch.  Sorrow's Fang and the Astrids spawn way to many ships for me to be able to sit idle.  And before we get into the "it's Cinth playing 8 champs", remember you can get 8 champs through multiplayer

[Toranth]

In that exact scenario with 8 champions, you cannot sit and watch.  Sorrow's Fang and the Astrids spawn way to many ships for me to be able to sit idle.  And before we get into the "it's Cinth playing 8 champs", remember you can get 8 champs through multiplayer

I had 8 Champions.  They all entered through the wormhole, way off to one side, and never moved.  Yet I still 'won' in a very one-sided battle.  That is definitely not right.