Author Topic: Nebula battles balancing  (Read 10131 times)

Offline Aquohn

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Nebula battles balancing
« on: April 06, 2013, 01:24:14 pm »
While the nebula scenarios are quite fun and varied, the one kidn that's really annoying is the bog-standard battle.

You know, X bases VS X bases (e.g. Epsilon Eridani, Shattered Pillar VS Dark Spire VS Neinzul Astrids). Wipe out all hostile bases to win.

And that's the problem. For some reason, the first few bases are incredibly easy to dispatch, with proper usage of your projected shields/ship's armament. Then the game undergoes a massive slowdown, your allies suddenly become intelligent as rocks (no offense intended to the Spire), and the scenario slowly drags on. I've had the Sorrow's Fang in the Epsilon Eridani scenario go from their large starbase against an entirely intact force of EEr bases (6 small, 1 large) and take down three of the starbases. Now ordinarily I wouldn't have minded, but the problem is, this has unfair strategic reprecussions. The Champion, as a consequence of finishing slower and losing more starbases, gets less experience and less modules, thus faring poorer in other missions and reducing the palyer's overall firepower.

Now I'm not sure if the allies are actually dumber, or if this is just a perception, but it's undeniable that there is an unfairly draggy lull between the first half or so of the battle, and final victory. This, in my opinion, is not merely un-fun but unfair.

Has anyone made similar observations?
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Or is that "to kill"?  Hmm.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 03:14:27 pm »
This is because for some strange reason, the less bases the enemy has, the more powerful they become.

I don't know if this is COMPLETELY true, but at least when they get down to their main producing structure only, they start producing more units than ever.

I could be wrong, but that's how it seems like to me. That means that in that scenario you're talking about, you'd be better off to just let the two enemy factions duke it out for awhile and kill each other. You don't want to get either of them (ESPECIALLY THE PURPLE ONE) to lose too much too quickly or they'll start taking over the Nebula.
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Offline Aquohn

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 08:15:03 pm »
Keith actually talked about this a while back:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11325.420.html (last page, somewhere in the middle)

He confirmed that the enemy bases do indeed increase production when their other bases are blown up, and someone mentioned the same allied AI derpy behaviour I'm complaining about here.

For dealing with the 3-way FFA, I agree: the Dark Spire are extremely well-suited for wrecking bases. The trouble is, you actually have four starbases, so you make yourself a priority target for the other two (also your allies are dumb and insist on helping the enemies relieve their sieges). The only way to take the heat off so that the scenario is actually winnable is to purposely lose some starbases. And given that this reduces your rewards...

EDIT: Forgot to mention: tougher hulls can actually allow you to turn circles around Dark Spire starbases. The effect is quite hilarious.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:30:55 pm by Aquohn »
Arcen in Summary:
thank you so much, RNG
It aims to please!

Or is that "to kill"?  Hmm.

Offline orzelek

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 08:16:37 pm »
I actually had a bit different observations.

I did 15 scenarios total (120 planets + duplicates enabled).
At start while you have small hull starbase based ones can drag a bit for sure. Later (around halfway betwenn cruiser and bs hull) it reversed a bit for me. Some of the more exotic scenarios (colony ships, mourners with their caches) were proving exceedingly difficult.
As for starbases you take zenith hull, pack with shields/missiles and go hunt them. Spire with plasma sieges could be faster but I got it to late so mostly used zenith.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 11:40:23 pm »
Yeah, unfortunately you get the zenith hull from the hell that is three way war (Shattered pillar vs dark spire and neinzul astrid).

That mission frequently takes an hour or more for me.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 12:19:55 am »
Yeah, unfortunately you get the zenith hull from the hell that is three way war (Shattered pillar vs dark spire and neinzul astrid).
At the frigate level, there is no difference between the Human and Zenith hulls.  At the destroyer level, the difference is pretty small, although it depends a bit on which modules you use.  10%-ish for base modules, reversed if you have DAs but not Polarizers.  Only when you start to get into the Cruiser or Battleship level do the differences really begin to matter.

As for starbases you take zenith hull, pack with shields/missiles and go hunt them. Spire with plasma sieges could be faster but I got it to late so mostly used zenith.
Armor Polarizer or Doom Accelerator is the best anti-starbase small module, Missiles are the best large module (Plasma Siege only for Spire: Mk I Missiles do 150,000 DPS against Starbases, Plasma Siege only 100,000).

Personally, I always circle around to try to take out the Large starbases first, then hide behind the allied ships to finish off the smaller bases.  Use your shields carefully, and and you should be able to get a kill - or at least get close.  It still takes a while, but greatly reduces the amount of drudgery that can result when everything BUT the Large Starbases are killed.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 01:07:13 am »
Yeah, unfortunately you get the zenith hull from the hell that is three way war (Shattered pillar vs dark spire and neinzul astrid).
At the frigate level, there is no difference between the Human and Zenith hulls.  At the destroyer level, the difference is pretty small, although it depends a bit on which modules you use.  10%-ish for base modules, reversed if you have DAs but not Polarizers.  Only when you start to get into the Cruiser or Battleship level do the differences really begin to matter.

The Zenith shadow frigate hull (and the Spire shadow frigate hull, for that matter) does 360kdps against starbases. The Human shadow frigate hull does only 150kdps. They can each mount one or two missile launchers, which each do 150kdps/mark against starbases. (Spire Plasma Siege Cannons do 100kdps/mark against starbases and heavy ships, but the zenith is frankly just plain the best hull out there for nebulas).

I don't think any frigate can reasonably kill a large starbase anyway. Every starbase has a bonus against you, and your hull doesn't have a bonus against it.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 02:38:23 am »
What about bomber drones?

Offline Aquohn

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 03:35:18 am »
Effective against Dark Spire starbases, but not much else. I'm actually more upset about the Sorrow's Fang nebula: they'll drop the drones (and you, and the allied bombers) like flies.
Arcen in Summary:
thank you so much, RNG
It aims to please!

Or is that "to kill"?  Hmm.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2013, 04:10:33 am »
Depends on how long your shields hold up but either way, how much DPS do they manage?

Offline Cinth

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2013, 06:35:09 am »
Not going to post numbers or what not..   

You can beat every nebula scenario with max leveled (for your hull) Laser, Missile and Shield modules.

Before you do your first scenario, go get to level 5 and unlock the MK II modules you need.  DO NOT EVER start a nebula at lvl 1.  You only hurt your own chances.

As far as hulls go, Zenith is probably the best all around hull.  The main gun does solid damage and it is fairly balanced on modules.  If you prefer to escort friendlies then use the Human variant and split the small slots with lasers and mlrs (maybe a needler or three on the larger hulls) since the main gun is practically the same as the needler.  You can cover all ship types with bonus damage that way.  Pretty much only use the Spire hulls if you need to blitz the starbases.  And never ever ever use the Neinzul hulls in nebula.  It is meant to be used in AI space (and used to great effect).

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Offline Toranth

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 06:42:52 am »
Yeah, unfortunately you get the zenith hull from the hell that is three way war (Shattered pillar vs dark spire and neinzul astrid).
At the frigate level, there is no difference between the Human and Zenith hulls.  At the destroyer level, the difference is pretty small, although it depends a bit on which modules you use.  10%-ish for base modules, reversed if you have DAs but not Polarizers.  Only when you start to get into the Cruiser or Battleship level do the differences really begin to matter.

The Zenith shadow frigate hull (and the Spire shadow frigate hull, for that matter) does 360kdps against starbases. The Human shadow frigate hull does only 150kdps. They can each mount one or two missile launchers, which each do 150kdps/mark against starbases. (Spire Plasma Siege Cannons do 100kdps/mark against starbases and heavy ships, but the zenith is frankly just plain the best hull out there for nebulas).
I was thinking of the modules, but yeah, for Nebulas the Zenith hull has a better DPS main weapon over the Human hull's multi-shot and Light-group multipliers. 
Spire Plasma Siege modules, though... Yeah, they work against heavy ships, which missiles don't.  But killing starbases and other Ultra-Heavies, which is how to win 7 of 9 scenarios, is more important.

I don't think any frigate can reasonably kill a large starbase anyway. Every starbase has a bonus against you, and your hull doesn't have a bonus against it.
It takes a couple of runs, but it can happen.
At frigate level, assuming Mk II modules, 1 shield module, 1 missile module, and all small as either DA or polarizer, the Zenith hull does roughly 990,000 DPS on average.  The Human hull does roughly 770,000 DPS on average.
Large starbases have around 100,000,000 HP (90M for Neinzul, 120M for Zenith) and do about between 1,500,000 DPS (Spire) and 3,000,000 DPS (Sorrow's Fang).
It'll take 2-3 runs, but you can do it.

Depends on how long your shields hold up but either way, how much DPS do they manage?
Bombers?  Bombers are steady-state at 12 active units, and at Mk I each does 2880 DPS plus a 6x multiplier vs Starbases.  That's a total of 207,360 DPS per Bomber Bay per Mark.
Unfortunately, drones have issues.  First, as Aquohn said, is that with no HP, they die like flies.  Heavy ships and starbases kill your entire spawn without any noticable delay.  Second, and almost as importantly, drones do not inherit the targetting info of the parent Champion.  This means they are likely to shoot at something - anything - except the starbase.  Finally, range and targeting issues cause firing delays, which reduces the number of shots fired by the drones during their lifespan and thus DPS.

Offline Aquohn

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 07:53:00 am »
Not going to post numbers or what not..   

You can beat every nebula scenario with max leveled (for your hull) Laser, Missile and Shield modules.

Before you do your first scenario, go get to level 5 and unlock the MK II modules you need.  DO NOT EVER start a nebula at lvl 1.  You only hurt your own chances.

As far as hulls go, Zenith is probably the best all around hull.  The main gun does solid damage and it is fairly balanced on modules.  If you prefer to escort friendlies then use the Human variant and split the small slots with lasers and mlrs (maybe a needler or three on the larger hulls) since the main gun is practically the same as the needler.  You can cover all ship types with bonus damage that way.  Pretty much only use the Spire hulls if you need to blitz the starbases.  And never ever ever use the Neinzul hulls in nebula.  It is meant to be used in AI space (and used to great effect).

Yeah, that's pretty much the same assessment I'd perform. But the problem isn't beating the scenario, per se, it's beating it quickly. The bog-standard battles always drag forever for me. I'll try this out next time, though it seems to me that needing to level the ship before the first nebula is more poor design than anything.

By "Missile", do you mean rockets, or MLRS?
Arcen in Summary:
thank you so much, RNG
It aims to please!

Or is that "to kill"?  Hmm.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 11:58:54 am »
Missile Module.

It isn't a requirement to level up before you start, it just helps you more than not doing that in the first place.  5 levels gives you MK II Missile, Laser and Shield Modules.

One of the intangible benefits of drones are target saturation. Bombers are overall the best BUT don't count on them getting full damage during a spawn time. Think of them like a CC module.  That said, Bombers are the best large slot for the Dyson scenario.

One of the basic strats for the base vs base scenarios is to escort your allies and use your shield ability to allow them to get their numbers up.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Nebula battles balancing
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2013, 12:04:09 pm »
Hmm, methinks there needs to be a separate difficulty setting for the nebulae.  Because if I nerf the challenges (notably the anti-snowball mechanic of the enemy production increasing as it loses bases) there will be people like Cinth that just won't get a challenge from it.
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