My thoughts on current balance

[chemical_art]

20% i think

[TechSY730]

Why not just bring back old shields? I really liked them. I think they brought a lot to the game. Really allowed for absolutely hilarious space tanks. (and the old 5% chance to hit)

By the way - Whats the lowest amount of damage that can be dealt? Is it still 25%? I feel like that number has to be wrong.

Making the primary damage-mitigation mechanic non-deterministic, while hilarious at times, for many players, "rubbed them the wrong way". And more importantly, was proving to be a nightmare to balance.
Thus, a more traditional, deterministic damage-mitigation was introduced. While the balance of armor ratings may have fine at first (I really don't remember, it was too long ago), as the game shifted, armor values were neglected, and thus we now have the current situations where it rarely makes a noticeable impact.

Oh, and the min damage multiplier due to armor isn't 25%. That would be ridiculous. It is at a far saner value of 20%...
Well, it used to be 5%, but that proved too be too low. However, I think it has been proven that 20% is too high. What about 10%?
Part of the new system, I hope, is bumping down the min damage multiplier due to armor to a saner value (like 10%)

[Lancefighter]

I was mostly wondering because hardened shields have 500k armor in exchange for 1/4 the hp - a 25% minimum damage makes them completely useless. At least at 20% they are slightly more useful against anything not-starship related, i believe.

Anyway, the post about shields was largely satire - It just felt a lot like making it log based, and harder to calculate in my head at any given moment would mean that itd feel a lot like old shields, where Id have to just shoot it and hope it works.

[TechSY730]

Ah, found the latest armor discussion thread: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11113.0.html
Have fun digging through 11 pages worth of armor related goodness. 

Somewhere near the end should be the system/formulas the Keith is seriously thinking about switching to.

[Lancefighter]

I'm afraid I cant make much sense of that at this hour, but it seems mostly that he is looking to make high attack values inherently armor piercing compared to armor, whereas armor becomes %mitigation with regard to damage value. Or something.

I can certainly see that working, if I understand it properly.

But like he said early on - He doesnt really see an armor rebalance working until after the expansion. (and I assume post SH release)

[Faulty Logic]

I don't have a strong opinion about armor.

However, starships need help, especially the spire starship, formerly the best unit humans had access to. Now it is just pathetic.  High-mark raids, leeches, bombers, sieges, and flagships need either a big stats buff or a cost nerf as well. Zeniths are pretty good as is, but still aren't the awesome ships they were before, and it is still rarely worth unlocking mkIII. In fact, I have never unlocked any starship III but riots and flagships, and even there I probably should have unlocked other stuff.

Yep, the idea of a Mk. IV starship fabricator was tossed around some, and I think there is a mantis issue about it (will post a link if I can find it)

Here: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9119
This would help. A lot.

[Mánagarmr]

This would explain why I never ever use any other starships than Raids...

[Ozymandiaz]

I do think starships are somewhat weak now as well, but I notice it mostly in games with larger fleet caps. I used my travel computer with very low feet caps, and then statships shine a lot more.

[TechSY730]

I was thinking about the Spire starships this morning. What about giving them medium armor?
This would make them fit with many other of the Spire ship types, and will shift their triangle counter from missile frigates to fighters. This would also bring them in line with the other starship type that has a high single target DPS, the bomber starship (which has polycrystal hull). Having standard fighters counter high single target DPS starships makes good sense based on the archetype that standard fighters seem to be going for (cheap, semi-swarming ships).

[Diazo]

I've been thinking about the starship mechanic in general and their thing is supposed to be survivability.

I believe it is a cap of starships has roughly half the dps and twice the health of an equal cap of equivalent fleet ships.

Now, AI War is skewed towards DPS over survivability due to how easy to replace units are so I'm wondering if the basic starship template needs a look.  Maybe twice the health and 3/4 the dps?

Having said that, I am just curb-stomping any system I take my 40 ship starship fleet into, even a Mk IV with 400 ships defending it, so maybe starships overall are fine? (Have not attacked a core or AI homeworld yet.)

Having said that, a combined fleet ship and starship fleet ball is actually weaker then a pure fleet ship or starship fleet ball I think.

I say this because a pure fleet ship ship ball has high dps at the cost of survivability where-as a pure starship ship ball prioritizes survivability at the cost of dps so when you combine the two you get this average that does not work as well.

Attacking a tough system with a fleet ship ball has high enough dps to kill everything before dying, a starship fleet ball has the survivability to tank return fire long enough to kill everything. But a mixed fleet loses a lot of dps so the fleet ship half dies before the AI is dead and then the smaller starship fleet that remains can't do it alone.

I'm not actually sure how accurate that is, knowledge costs force a fleet ship OR starship situation at the moment so I've never actually tested that.

Lost my train of thought again. Bleh. 

More specifically on the spire starship, what about giving it the same insta-kill ability as the ion cannon for one mark level higher then it? That would keep the spire beam weapon but actually allow it to engage fleet ships somewhat effectively without totally overhauling it.

D.

[Hearteater]

My thoughts:
Raid - Awesome and useful, Mark II isn't mandatory, but it can be very helpful.  Mark III is less useful because it is pretty much overkill.
Scout- Somewhat useful, although it feels a awkward to use.
Plasma Siege - Super awesome.  An Advanced Starship Constructor for Mark IVs would make unlocking this up to III very compelling.
Flagship- Useful at Mark I, but so fragile despite radar dampening.  I'm too nervous to spend the K to try out Mark II and III.
Bomber- Useful, but tough to use.  Its short range really makes it take enough damage it could use a toughness boost.  II & III aren't worth the hassel except against mass Fortresses if you lose your Advanced Factory.  Should also be renamed Heavy Bomber.
Zenith- A useful unlock at Mark I, uncertain about II & III.
Spire- See earlier in this thread.

[TechSY730]

So, Lancefighter,

How do you feel about balance overall, especially compared to when you took a break from AI war? (Ancient shadows stuff doesn't count; it hasn't been put through all the balancing rounds yet )

[keith.lamothe]

Next, the spire ship is currently weak. It on paper has 20% more base dps then the zenith or flagship line.

(...)

2) The spire ship gets no bonuses, while the others get 4x bonuses over a variety of things.

Sorry, math error on my part, a no-bonus ship is supposed to get way more than 20% more base dps   That's a big part of the problem right there.

1) The spire ship almost never delivers its full payload. It is lucky to get half the payload off because it takes so long.

This is actually not something I'm worried about: there are many situations and positions where a photon lance (which are all 2 seconds long, fyi) can get max or near-max damage.  Especially in the situations where you really need max firepower (firing into a huge blob of AI ships).  They're certainly not as good at "impromptu combat" but against blobs or if positioned on the axis of the enemy's movement... quite effective.

Basically the reason they don't get bonuses is that "positioning is their bonus".

That said, lances are supposed to get a fairly hilariously high damage value to compensate for their foibles, and I think I just did the math wrong here.

4) I need independent verification, but it seems the reload process doesn't feel like it starts till the beam ends. Which means the beam fires over 3 - 5 seconds then and only then starts the reload process. Which means it doesn't dish out 240k damage over 8 seconds, its 240k over 11 - 13 seconds, which alone would make it worst then the other starships in every way IF this is actually a fact which I cannot say for now is true...

This is an issue, which I've corrected for in the math for other recently added ships with this weapon, but didn't here.  It does cut substantially into the on-paper DPS.  The beam time is 2 seconds, fyi.

On the other balance considerations:
1) The zenith and spire ones should have different hull types, I'll probably give the spire one medium, maybe polycrystal, so that their nemesis triangle type isn't shredding them from range.
2) The health of starships in general could go up (fyi, the balance target for these has been roughly 2/3rds to 3/4ths the cap-dps of a fleet-ship cap, and 1.5x the health), but as Dazio's recent experience shows, the things are already quite durable compared to fleet ships.  I'm honestly not comfortable with starship-only being that viable already   There's fleet ships in this game for a reason, y'know.  At least use the enclave's drones

[Diazo]

2) The health of starships in general could go up (fyi, the balance target for these has been roughly 2/3rds to 3/4ths the cap-dps of a fleet-ship cap, and 1.5x the health), but as Dazio's recent experience shows, the things are already quite durable compared to fleet ships.  I'm honestly not comfortable with starship-only being that viable already   There's fleet ships in this game for a reason, y'know.  At least use the enclave's drones

Erg, I was afraid that would come up.

I am cheesing starship health in a couple of ways in my game so take that with a grain of salt.

1) Send champion through, put up two shields, bring rest of fleet through. You take no damage from the wormhole defenders, even when the defenders are in the 200-300 unit count range. I've had to drop a 3rd shield a couple of times, never a 4th or 5th. Yes, the shield is that big, I can get my entire 40 ship starship ball under a single champion shield.

2) Once the wormhole is clear, head for the system edge and then curve around the outside. Does not matter how many ships are in the system, the riots make sure they never get in range (except for the missile frigates if they time it so my plasma sieges are reloading). This is with only Mk I riots, so only 4 of them. Probably not unlocking Mk II riots either, the Mk Is alone are good enough at the engine damage.

3) Between the Champion and the Riot shields, probably 75% of the time incoming fire hits a shield rather then a ship further reducing the damage my ships are taking.

4) I have a secondary ship ball trailing behind of Zenith Medics and Cloaking Starships. The Medics repair range is twice their attack range, I can have my starship fleet under fire while being repaired at the same time and the Medics stay safely cloaked as they are out of range and so not firing. With so many shields in my fleet I can repair back to 100% while under fire without too much trouble.

My next game is going to be a pure starship game again, but with no champion present. Being forced to fight my way into a system with no shields would have me losing a lot more starships. Or clearing the warp point with fleet ships before bringing my starships in.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, ok, I can boost the HP on the things a bit at least.  Just don't want the game to devolve into "hop into starship, drive around the galaxy killing everything you see".

That's what Fallen Spire is for