Champion: Death Penalties?

[Drjones013]

I finally got a chance to play with a friend and Hoboy, the human champion is awesome! I really dig the fact that a player can home in on offense/defense with a single ship-- but that's when I noticed something.

He dies. Repeatedly. No penalty, just a respawn. I have to update his ship after death (no big deal) and then he's in the fight again and it really doesn't matter. I think upping the durability of the ship and actually forcing a friendly player to rebuild the champion might encourage more strategic thinking versus 'how do I force kill my ship to respawn at the home base?'

Thoughts?

[orzelek]

Why would you need to force kill it to respawn? Delete works wonders
I'm usually trying to get back with champion for repairs - respawning seems a bit to abusable.

I think that Keith is planning some respawn timer to prevent repeated respawns in succession.

[Shrugging Khan]

Champions cause waves (and reinforcements?) to be 20% stronger. So there you go - there's no penalty for death, yar, but for its existence!

[Kahuna]

Champions cause waves (and reinforcements?) to be 20% stronger. So there you go - there's no penalty for death, yar, but for its existence!

Champions are still overpowered.

[Wingflier]

Agreed, 20 percent is not nearly enough for what it gives you. Remember, not only are you receiving an indestructible battleship, but also the aid of several minor factions' ships. Personally I think that these bonuses are at least worth a 50% AI difficulty increase, if not more.

[Toranth]

Agreed, 20 percent is not nearly enough for what it gives you. Remember, not only are you receiving an indestructible battleship, but also the aid of several minor factions' ships. Personally I think that these bonuses are at least worth a 50% AI difficulty increase, if not more.

Sorry, but I think this is crazy.
A single Champion is a 20% addition to the multiplier of the AI's strength for everything.  Forever.  Start game, middle game, end game.  Each wave is 20% stronger.  Every CPA is 20% stronger.  Every Exowave is 20% stronger.

For comparison, a single Champion is like moving instantly from 7.0 difficulty to 7.6.  5 Champions, which is a 100% bonus to all AI strength calculations, is like moving from diff 7.0 to 9.0.  Or it's like having 4 starting HW - but without the extra resources, bonus ship types, or larger caps.


While Champions are impressive, and a lot of fun, by the endgame, they are a distinct drawback in the long run.  In my current 9/9, 8 Champion game (+160% - a 2.6 multipler to the AI's everything), all AI waves are in the 10,000 to 15,000 size range instead of the 4,000-6,000 size.  8 Champions are powerful, but even they get crushed by 6,000 or 9,000 ships.  I've been forced to spend almost all my K on defensive options (Fortresses, turret upgrades, FFs) just so I can survive.

[TechSY730]

Agreed, 20 percent is not nearly enough for what it gives you. Remember, not only are you receiving an indestructible battleship, but also the aid of several minor factions' ships. Personally I think that these bonuses are at least worth a 50% AI difficulty increase, if not more.

Sorry, but I think this is crazy.
A single Champion is a 20% addition to the multiplier of the AI's strength for everything.  Forever.  Start game, middle game, end game.  Each wave is 20% stronger.  Every CPA is 20% stronger.  Every Exowave is 20% stronger.

For comparison, a single Champion is like moving instantly from 7.0 difficulty to 7.6.  5 Champions, which is a 100% bonus to all AI strength calculations, is like moving from diff 7.0 to 9.0.  Or it's like having 4 starting HW - but without the extra resources, bonus ship types, or larger caps.


While Champions are impressive, and a lot of fun, by the endgame, they are a distinct drawback in the long run.  In my current 9/9, 8 Champion game (+160% - a 2.6 multipler to the AI's everything), all AI waves are in the 10,000 to 15,000 size range instead of the 4,000-6,000 size.  8 Champions are powerful, but even they get crushed by 6,000 or 9,000 ships.  I've been forced to spend almost all my K on defensive options (Fortresses, turret upgrades, FFs) just so I can survive.

Keith mentioned he may think about buffing that percentage for waves and reinforcements, but still keep boost for exos at 20% (or possibly even reduce that percentage for exos).

That, and the whole line still needs more balance work.

[Diazo]

Higher percentage for waves? Ouch.

While I certainly found the Champion useful and did help me out, was it really powerful enough to be worth 2,000 more AI units in a CPA?

Because in my game (keep in mind this is difficulty 10/10) that is what I faced and I did not feel the Champion was worth 2,000 more ships.

(10,000 Unit CPA, so around 2,000 of those ships is from the Champions bonus.)

Even on regular waves, the wave that I ended up conceding the game was 5,200 units, so 900 of those units are from the Champions 20% bonus to the AI.

I did not feel the champion was worth that much.

The biggest hull I got was the destroyer however, I got pinned and could not reach more nebulas because I was trying to survive.

Actually, a thought. See the Ancient Shadows Reactions thread for it however, it belongs there.

D.

[Shrugging Khan]

Well, IMHO a penalty on death (seriously, death penalties?) would be more appropriate than balancing the champs entirely by difficulty modifier. Losing all shadow charge, causing a temporary reduction of all human energy or resource production, or forcing the champion player to use lower-tier champions for a short time sound like better solutions to me.

[keith.lamothe]

Respawning costing all shadow charge and starting a 30 second "can't respawn again until this is up" is already on my list.  Just to prevent excessive suicide-cheese.  And changing the "scrap" text to "warp this home" so it doesn't feel so much like the "fast travel" option is so... cognitively dissonant