More than 2 AIs

[lanstro]

I was wondering why it's limited to just 2 AI slots.  I only play with 2-4 others and so we never use up all 8 human slots.  I think it'd be interesting to play against say, 4 AIs, so we have 4 different personalities to deal with instead of 2.

[x4000]

It's very much built into the fabric of the game to have two AIs; the only way around that is with things like the minor factions.  It would be pretty heavy surgery to get it having more than 2 AIs, and then getting it balanced would be a real challenge, etc (you'd have an extra incoming wave per AI player per human player under the current logic, etc).  My thought was that it simply would not add that much to have it hugely fragmented, and the focus was simply on providing more per-planet variety in different ways, etc.  Would be pretty hard to go back and change now, unfortunately.

[madpinger]

I can follow the logic behind how the current 2 AI model is deeply entrenched.  Perhaps,  a way could be worked out to achieve what is wanted here with out changing that.  It would seem that simply having more AI's is not the OP's actual goal per say, rather that He wants a more varied personality.

Perhaps,  a AI setting that applies random templates to each planet, or some sim concept.
Could even have altering patterns  of behavior through out the game such as type of waves, frequency of waves, and so on.

[x4000]

Well -- that's what minor factions are all about.  We do plan to do more.  And, that's a big part of why the expansion had so many AI special weapons/capturables, etc.  And post-3.0 has added a lot of those to the base game.  That's something we are focusing on in general, but not via mixing up the AI types in that specific manner.  From my perspective, there's just not a reason to make the model bend in that way, when there are so many more interesting ways that we can extend the existing model (and that we already are).

[madpinger]

Oh, Personally  I'm rather happy with the Minor Factions and other modifications available to the game in the pre-game settings.  They offer a nice selection of options and effect game play accordingly.

I do look forward to where you take it from here.  With the DLC added to the patches I can only imagine the goodies you have in store for an other expansion

[x4000]

[SmileyFace]

I think the OP is looking for more variety in AI behaviour. If so, I agree.

Minor factions, at least in the base game, aren't very interesting. The freedom fighters trigger far too often to the point I don't care if they appear because they always seem to be around. I expected them to be more unpredictable (and smarter - they will happily appear even when I am retreating). Rebels are a great mechanic in that they force the player's hand, but it triggers rarely and has no effect during most of the game. I haven't tried marauders yet but I fear they will be like freedom fighters - too numerous.

More AI personalities in a game means you have more chance of being surprised. As it is, once you figure out the 2 AI types you know exactly what you'll be facing... for the next 10-15 hours. This could easily be spiced up with more unpredictability/variety.

[x4000]

That's where the uniqueness on the individual planets comes in.  At any rate, the proposition of splitting the AI types further than they currently are is such a vast thing that it's not feasible until early next year when we do the next expansion, regardless.  And even then I'm not sure it's a good use of time.

I'm all for more variety -- don't get me wrong.  But overall AI personalities are but one way among a whole hat full of ways to accomplish this sort of goal, and latching on to that one very difficult method is not something I care to entertain.  If the minor factions aren't interesting enough, suggest new ones -- we have an actual mechanism built around those, and I'd love to see the number and variety of those grow.  And they are additive, as players want.  And the other focus is on making individual planets more unique through increased variety of AI ships, etc, as I noted.

If you're playing base game only and feel like there isn't enough variety after you play it for a good while, though... that's pretty much what we created the expansion for.  Not that I'm just trying to hock an addon to the game or whatever, but if there isn't enough content in the base game to keep you happy after a few dozen hours of playing the game, then that's precisely why the addon was created (and we charge for it because of the sheer amount of work that had to go into it, etc).

The game will grow, through DLC and expansions.  More minor factions will be added through both venues, as will other units, mechanics, and so on to make the planets more varied and interesting.  The AI personalities are but one layer amongst many in the tapestry of a galactic scenario, and more personalities will be added as well, though the likelihood of having more than 2 at a time is about nil; it's simply not needed when all the other already-working mechanics for expansion and variety are considered.  We do a ton of stuff for free, and that's always coming out as DLC in a pretty crazy stream, but by the same token if you want some huge leaps forward, those are the expansions, which are in another class by themselves even above our massive free content add-ons.

I don't have any disagreements with the sentiments being expressed here: my disagreement is solely with the suggested remedy to this (and the ignoring of the expansion, which was largely built to address wanting more variety in the first place).

[RCIX]

I don't have any disagreements with the sentiments being expressed here: my disagreement is solely with the suggested remedy to this (and the ignoring of the expansion, which was largely built to address wanting more variety in the first place).

I think they want more free variety

Oh, and speaking as a player who moves much slower though the game, i find Rebel Colonies occur far too often for my taste. I'd turn them on otherwise.

[x4000]

Yep, well, there's plenty of free variety, but it comes in little bits and pieces over time, not in huge chunks or revamps most of the time.  Incidentally, there's a new AI behavior that I'm introducing in a release that will be coming out in a few minutes, and that's something that should be interesting in general (and provide a bit more variety in strategies, though it's largely unrelated to this conversation).  And I did have an idea earlier tonight for a new Minor Faction that I'd really like to add, and that will be part of DLC, but which we probably don't have time to implement until next month.  As much fun as it is to add content for free, there are only so many hours in a week, and we already work a pretty insane schedule.

[eRe4s3r]

Rebel Colonies occur 4 times in a 15 hour game - which means 3 times you have to either a) capture them or b) ignore them for a= Massive progress penalty or b=0 Gain.

Also i would mention, that Mining Golems should NOT count towards your own progression if they blast a planet thats not yours, after all you will have a hard time stopping it to blow up an AI world.. 5 jumps away from anything you have.

So Mining golems are basically timed progression penalties that also blast planets away and Rebel Colonies are .. timed progression penalties (although the resistance ships are awesome ,p)

Nevertheless, i usually disable these 2 because random destruction is only fun if it doesn't hurt my perfect all-time at tech 1 playthrough. ;p Dysons for me tend to spawn at outrageous places (last one on an AI Homeworld) so that i switch off too.

I had wished the original suggestion of von Neuman attackers and mining golems would not have been done this way to be honest, in suggestion these 2 were supposed to be looming hard to judge threats not stationary 1 shot threats. I think this is one reason why they are so underwhelming (but nothing that couldn't be fixed in an expansion ,p)

[x4000]

Well, I think the minor factions all boil down to taste.  A lot of the existing ones (Mining Golem and Rebel Colony) were created specifically to create the sort of gameplay you're not wanting there.  Others enjoy it, and it creates a certain sort of tension that is meant to make those ultra-low-progress not so easy with these on.  That said, I don't expect everyone to play with every minor faction on... and all of the minor factions are not meant to have the same flavor, either.  Seems like all of them are popular with various people, and not with others -- trader being the main universally popular one, I suppose.

The next free DLC minor faction that I have an idea for, the Saboteur, should provide something more up your alley, eRe4s3r.  And there's nothing to say we can't do other minor factions later on that are more about "ambient threat" as you put it.  Though, actually, the new AI mechanic in 3.107 should help on that front, too (on higher diffs at least).

It's all evolving, constantly.  There's just a limit on what we can do in the context of free DLC for time reasons, and then for the bigger ideas we tend to save those up and explore them aggregate in expansions.  I think it provides a pretty good balance, and an ever-evolving game, personally.  Even ignoring the expansion, the base game is eons better now than it was even at the start of this year, let alone further back in last year.

[SmileyFace]

I don't have any disagreements with the sentiments being expressed here: my disagreement is solely with the suggested remedy to this (and the ignoring of the expansion, which was largely built to address wanting more variety in the first place).

Good point about the expansion. On my part, I provide feedback and ideas on the base game. I have the expansion but disabled it for my first few games to learn the ropes and see AI War as it "was meant to be played" (since expansions usually add new things, not change the core game).

I'll be using ZR from the next game onwards and that will no doubt change some of my views on here. That said, comments about the base game are still equally valid. That's the trouble with having multiple versions. And, also, providing patches that apply changes to all versions. i.e. I have no idea how the recent change of allowing starships in transports affects expansion games but it seems ok in base.

Also, the forum structure... Base & ZR players access the same boards often with no idea who is using what version (& patch). I'm finding this makes discussion and suggestions difficult. The topic of this thread is a perfect example: it's very relevant for base AI War yet has been largely addressed by ZR. But a player of base AI War can't know this. Is it assumed we're all using ZR with latest beta patch on here? I'm not.

Food for thought: What happens after the 2nd expansion and there are four possible versions?

[RCIX]

Well, I think the minor factions all boil down to taste.  A lot of the existing ones (Mining Golem and Rebel Colony) were created specifically to create the sort of gameplay you're not wanting there.  Others enjoy it, and it creates a certain sort of tension that is meant to make those ultra-low-progress not so easy with these on.  That said, I don't expect everyone to play with every minor faction on... and all of the minor factions are not meant to have the same flavor, either.  Seems like all of them are popular with various people, and not with others -- trader being the main universally popular one, I suppose.

You have a good point, and I'd be happy to stretch myself now and then, but the problem is that after the first one, you get absolutely nothing except a few resources for your trouble. If there was more benefit to holding multiple, then i'd gladly turn it on.

[RCIX]

Food for thought: What happens after the 2nd expansion and there are four possible versions?

Regarding multiplayer, people just use the intersection of whatever people own. So if everyone owns the base game, but only two people own ZR and two different people own [insert next expansion name here], then you can only play with the base game.

Other than that, someone should probably prepare a list of commonly asked for features that are present in ZR/won't be implemented.

Edit: thinking about it, at some point X should probably offer a Gold base pack which lets you get AI war and the first X (like 2) expansions for a slightly discounted price (and remove the option to buy them individually except if you already own the base game).