Poll

Do you enjoy knowledge gathering in the LATE GAME?  How do you think it should be changed.

I enjoy knowledge gathering, but it should be easier.
3 (9.4%)
I enjoy knowledge gathering, and nothing should change.
9 (28.1%)
I enjoy knowledge gathering, but it should be harder.
9 (28.1%)
I do NOT enjoy knowledge gathering, it should be easier.
2 (6.3%)
I do NOT enjoy knowledge gathering, it should be harder.
2 (6.3%)
I do NOT enjoy knowledge gathering, it should be automated so I never have to think about it.
7 (21.9%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: June 12, 2010, 02:40:55 pm

Author Topic: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?  (Read 4169 times)

Offline superking

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 12:13:32 pm »
If not large fleet battles, can you tell me what parts of the gameplay you actually DO enjoy?
[/quote

the small to medium fleet battles  :)

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 01:58:30 pm »
/automated crowd checking in.

I am a strategy guy. If i can set up a strategic layer of knowledge, that would be good. I dont want some micro-intensive bits of cloaking starships or transports or whatever, I just want to be able to set it up and forget it. what you did with the auto-knowledge is a good start, but unfortunately, thats more a team game thing to me.. and I havent been playing many of those really. I should though..
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 02:01:08 pm »
thats more a team game thing to me..
Yea, it is more team-oriented, though if you get to a point where you don't spend K as fast as you get it you can go around capturing the planets and know the science labs will eventually get to it without you having to pay any attention (well, if the territory is connected).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline RCIX

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,808
  • Avatar credit goes to Spookypatrol on League forum
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 03:56:06 pm »
Yeah, its mainly the grind. It doesn't help much for the gameplay if the AI zerg rushes you every time you bring a sci lab to their world, or even just attacks when there's one nearby their worlds.
Avid League player and apparently back from the dead!

If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*

Offline TrooperC7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 05:50:00 pm »
To be honest, i would rather buy knowledge as i need it by spending crystal and or metal for knowledge upgrades.... or have each science lab generate a set amount so you have to decide how many labs to purchase... the knowledge raid gets old quickly especially once you figure out how to do it effectively....just my humble opinion so dont shoot me..

Offline Signata

  • Jr. Member Mark III
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 06:32:46 pm »
If they went that route, I like the second option better. Labs produce a very small amount of knowledge no matter where they are. Say, ten labs altogether would produce 1/sec knowledge, so one lab by itself would produce a single point every ten seconds. Advanced and higher Mk labs would do a bit better, maybe a bonus for "collaboration and peer review" :) if they are at the same planet. That way, you in effect are paying for knowledge because labs cost energy and energy costs resources. You just can't get at it all at once just because you are flush with raw ore---that really doesn't make any sense. Knowledge is acquired through slow research and theory in the real world, and discovery of knew things. Discovery is addressed in the existing model, it's the slow residual expansion of knowledge by scientists that isn't. Just what are those scientists on the lab ships doing whenever they are not in a new zone? Perhaps it would be better to not ask. ;)

To keep it balanced, there would probably need to be an effective cap based on total knowledge gathered. The more you know, the more difficult it is to learn new things because new things are orders of magnitude more complex. To simulate that, and provide a limit on people just letting their labs rack up knowledge for hours, the more you accumulate the lower the percentage gets. At the beginning of the game, this produces a decent amount of new knowledge for no effort. A couple of labs would produce ~720 knowledge per hour on top of whatever other acquisitions were made in that time. In the mid-end game the player might have dozens of labs from captured and higher mark models, so while the return would be lower, the overall cumulative impact would be about the same, which keeps the game interesting by reducing management, while somewhat mirroring how science works. Things get more complicated, so you throw more resources at it.

Those numbers would probably need to be tweaked, I'm just throwing them out there to explain the concept. 360/lab-hour might not be enough of an impact. Perhaps the percentage per second could be 25% instead of 10%. That would be 900/lab-hour, or with a couple of labs close to the acquisition of a new planet every hour, with the rate of return slowly decreasing. Throw more labs at the problem, and there you are spending more effective resources to do so. This is where having a collaboration bonus could help balance things out. That way in the start of the game when you can only afford a few labs, you aren't raking it in at high percentages, but later on when the rate of return is stressed, you can benefit from having 15 labs on a planet all working together. Perhaps it could even be proximity based, like cloak boosting. Or perhaps only Mark II's or even Advanced Labs are the only ones that produce this proximity boost in a manner similar to capital ships, boosting the labs around them---that would even be a better early-game abuse limiter, and would make Mk IIs more enticing to purchase.

There are probably some edge cases where things get whacky. What if there is a Zenith power plant right next door to the starting planet. The user could deploy a huge spread of labs early off and end up getting a ridiculous amount of knowledge for free (resource usage is effectively nil)---but then again the Zenith plant is inherently destabilising anyway. If you choose to use the surplus for knowledge instead of military power, that's your choice. The only area where it would be less balanced is that knowledge can in turn be used to create a more powerful military. Once you get the huge surplus you can wipe out the lab fleet and proceed as if you had used cheat codes.

Offline RCIX

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,808
  • Avatar credit goes to Spookypatrol on League forum
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 10:49:04 pm »
There's only one problem with your theory: pretty much all of the research you do is retreading the steps of the once-great civilizations that the AI took over, so it's not nearly as hard to produce knowledge.
Avid League player and apparently back from the dead!

If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*

rubikscube

  • Guest
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 01:00:03 am »
how about a hacking ai to get knowledge :D

Offline Signata

  • Jr. Member Mark III
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2010, 01:01:57 am »
I don't think that damages the mechanic, just the lore. So it is applied archaeology instead of theoretical science. Either way there would be diminishing returns as the larger more obvious pieces would be learned more quickly. Eventually putting together the more arcane, and difficult to understand, artefacts would need to be addressed and that would take more time+effort.

Offline Winter Born

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2010, 01:19:17 am »
how about a hacking ai to get knowledge :D

There is a thread on that in the "needs more work from players section" X4000 moved it there a while back

Offline Sizzle

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 01:37:52 pm »
Plug:

http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,5532.0.html

With the recent changes it's largely not needed.... but nonetheless an interesting spin on hacking and another way to design knowledge raiding.    If folks think there are any ideas there worth salvaging, I'd be interested to know. 

rubikscube

  • Guest
Re: POLL: What do you think of knowledge gathering?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 06:12:47 pm »
actually that's only for knowledge, and it was pretty new for them, my old idea can let people use that for scouting and all other intellegent data that's needed