Also, the Adv Turret Constructor replaces capturing multiple Fabs with capturing one ATC, or by hacking one ATC instead of multiple Fabs. That's easier on both counts, which I think isn't what you were intending.
Yes one capturable (AdvTC) would "replace" the many ones (CoreTC) but MkV turrets would also be K-locked, just like MkIV fleetships and starships. I'm afraid I wasn't accurate enough; sorry. (Also, the AdvTC hack would be merged with the AdvSShip/AdvFacto hack, which starts at 100 HaP.)
Yes, I got that, sorry I wasn't clear. The issue in my mind was one of Risk - with multiple Fabs, you need to protect them or lose the benefit. Protecting 6-7 Fabs can be pretty hard, which is why it usually turns into "protect some, hack others" - but there is still the risk of losing the "some", and hacks do go wrong, so there is some risk in the "others" too.
On the other hand, it's much easier to capture and protect one ATC, or hack it. Hacking even three Advanced Producers costs 100+150+225 = 475 HaP. Hacking 5 Fabs costs about 400, and hacking 6 costs over 600 HaP.
Your proposed Knowledge cost is significant, though, which you may consider a fair trade off for decreasing the Risk of loss of the Fab.
Your point on defending is interesting. However, considering how many times I heard about Chivalric and my personal save-reload, I have something against too many capturables-defendables. While it's an interesting risk-reward, having too many may sounds unfun, IMO.
Also, I personally believe your HaP calculations fall flat: nobody hacks 4 or more ATC. Do you? Personally, I think even with one cap of MkV turrets is enough; I rarely go specifically for one, I profit from what I incidentally capture because of other goals (like the ones that incidentally are in the cluster of planets I intended to get from the beginning) and if I really need some advanced turrets, I hack just one. Just like core fabricators: I
never very rarely specifically capture or hack one. Maybe I'm not the norm, but honestly I don't think many AIW players capture and hack more than a couple of ATC/CoreFab per game.
However, with the Adv. Facto/SShipFab, while the hacking cost is very high (is it the highest? maybe), capturing is often the way to go, and there, defense is interesting, because you have one big thing you care.
So, you think capturing the central AdvTC and unlocking some turrets up to MkIV would be too expensive for most players to bother? Coming from "free MkV for capture", sure. But look at the idea by itself; I believe it would be seen far below 10/10 Fallen Spire.
Sure, 7/7 vanilla is doable without turrets, but speaking of my personal experience, climbing up to 8/8 required me to raise my endgame AIP to "normal" levels (I rarely ended above 150, and often below 100 before first HW assault, but that's my strange, personal playstyle), and by consequence to use turrets; and the main reason why I'm still not completely comfortable at 8/8 is that I don't unlock enough turrets, I believe (well, that and the poor empire design choices, which are tied).
If you keep AIP low until you are almost ready to end the game, you can get by with just Mk I stuff until fairly high difficulties. Remember that CPAs can be dealt with through the judicious use of a Warhead or two, and Mk II stuff becomes almost unneeded.
On Diff 9-9.6, I unlock Mines, Grav Mk I, and HBC Mk I at the start, and Grav Mk II and HBC Mk II around the early->mid game transition. By late game, I unlock Spider Mk I and one or two more Mk II turrets, but that's about it, unless I'm playing with Exowaves. THEN Grav Mk III and HBC Mk III get unlocked earlier, and Needler/Laser Mk IIIs are likely to get unlocked.
Fallen Spire is where I unlock a lot of Mk III and Mk IV turrets, and much of that is to deal with the huge Exos and to unlock stuff for the Spire Capital Fleet.
My 10/10 games tend to be much more defensive, but that's because you're going to lose anyway so you might as well go down fighting.
Sure, I see your point. However please consider you're an advanced player. I'm also slowly using more special turrets (tractors and gravity, sometimes spider, not yet HBC and mines) and I understand that with greater skill, higher turrets become less and less needed in regular games. Your personal challenging level is 10/10, right? And you say you need to use advanced turrets at 10/10? Well, my personal challenging level is 8/8, and if I'm very comfortable with MkI turrets at 7/7, I need at least some at 8/8, and I bet I'll need more when I'll seriously get to 9/9. My point is: everybody need advanced turrets at its own challenging level. Advanced turrets matter in this game, even if they are the first things to become useless when someone becomes comfortable. That's why I think they deserve a little revamp, a little something that would make the choice of unlocking this or that turret interesting. Currently, I believe the MkV ATC suffocate the smaller, K-locked turrets. Which is sad. Not dire, but sad.
However, I consider your point seriously. Do you think it would be better (still considering (1) and the unique AdvTC) if we remove the MkIV turrets altogether and say "if players control or have hacked the AdvTC, they can build MkV turrets for all models that are unlocked up to MkIII"? Then, high mark turrets would still require the control or hack of the AdvTC but "only" the knowledge for turrets up to MkIII.
Do you think it would be better?
I may not use them much, but I do like the (still shiny-new) Mk IV turrets, and would hate to see them go.
One idea is to leave the Mk Vs available as normal, and have your ATC make the Mk IVs available, like fleetships work. Mk Vs may still need to be toned down for balance (per-system count reduction again?).
Another idea would be to reduce the K-cost of turrets... but last time that was discussed, it was pointed out that it would still make it entirely too easy to spam low Mark turrets, rather than paying for more expensive high Mark turrets.
Another idea was to limit the absolute number of turrets in a system. That would certainly push for the usage of higher Mark turrets, just for the increased efficiency. But then, once you'd unlocked a Mk II of a turret type, why would you ever use a lower Mark again? That seems... wasteful, especially when you unlock Mk IV, and your Mk Is-Mk IIIs are all suddenly useless.
Yeah. Sure. Also, the theoretical limit of turrets is now energy. Which is still an interesting limit: if a player has only some chokepoints, it's viable because a lot of energy is available for few exposed planets, and if a player has many frontier worlds, less energy is available per planet, which automatically limits the number of turrets. Zenith Power Generators kinda flaw that balance, but yet, it sounds okay. And reducing the K-cost isn't a good idea neither, of course: they are already very cheap.
To me, the real problem with unlocking many turrets is that every K you spend on turrets is a K that doesn't help you win. Sure, it helps you hold off the AI's attacks, but that only delays your eventual loss - only offensive unlocks actually help you win.
So, while it is worth it to unlock an offensive fleetship up to Mk III in order to get the Mk IV, it is rarely worth it to unlock up to Mk IV turrets. It used to be more worth it when there were galaxy-wide caps, because you needed more turrets, just by numbers, to defend. But since "MOAR TURRETS HERE" is always the best defensive strategy, it turned higher difficulty play into almost exclusively chokepoint whipping-boy games, which felt very restrictive.
So, while yes, I agree that Core Turret Controllers, especially Spider, Sniper, and Laser, are major targets for me to acquire, I don't think that locking them behind a K gate would make me spend the K on them. I'd just settle for unlocking a few more Mk IIs instead, since they're so much cheaper.
That point is crucial. Sure, I know it, but I guess I needed to read it black on white.
(Or white on gray, it's okay too.) It just dawned on me that turrets must not be K-locked. Sure, they must be locked, but not K-locked, because Knowledge is, indeed, the resource for offensive power. Other things suffer from that: advanced stations (the military one suffer from the exact same turret problem; the logistical one also a little bit), economical upgrades (advanced metal extractors and economical stations), maybe scouts a bit; engineers and FField generators are fine but can fall in the same category. Fortresses and mines should be in the turret bag.
Well, okay, my (new) point is: they shouldn't use the same currency. For instance, what if all this stuff (turrets and defensive support,
maybe economical) would be locked by something else than knowledge. Maybe we can imagine a new resource gathered exactly like the knowledge (or maybe something completely different) but exclusive for these turrets and defensive stuff. Players wouldn't be able to convert that currency for offensive firepower; it would be the game saying "as you progress, difficulty increases (AIP) but you are granted more firepower (ship types and K) and more defensive capability (energy and... that new resource). You'll deserve your win if you use your firepower (K) wisely and you'll survive if you use your defenses (
) as wisely."
Currently, AIP measures the raw progression of the game, Energy is mostly used for defense, Knowledge mostly for offense, Metal (and salvage/reprisal) ties time and combat efficiency, and Hacking is the "Jack of all trades" (can be converted to more K, more ship types and less AIP; not M and E however). The problem seems to be: K being used for both offense and defense, and offense being intrinsically a dominant strategy (just because the goal is to win, not to survive... that reminds me of the defender campaign type...), K is nearly always invested in offense, and K-locked defense is a (mostly) dead design space.
I think people use ATC not because MkV turrets are powerful, but because they don't cost K, which is entirely required for offense.
You know what? This post is already long enough. I'll try to come up with a well designed idea and I'll post it in the Mod section. Meanwhile, I wish to hear what you all think about that knowledge/defense problem.
Do you think an independent resource for defense, economy and logistic (that wouldn't eat the offense-reserved K) would be interesting?