Missle Frigate - Area Damage Immunity -> Serious Balance Problem

[keith.lamothe]

Are missile frigates immune to Beam Frigates then?  I'm assuming they would be.

To my knowledge, yes.

[Fox Soul]

I think the the area damage Immunity is a bit unrealistic.

Yes, I do believe its perfectly realistic and with in science fiction for space crafts to be immune from area affect damage.
BUT, The initial impact of the AoE projectile would deal damage to the target but not damage nearby aoe immune ships.

The only weapon I would imagine where it doesn't do initial impact damage is the flak guns.

[Spymine]

the only question i would want to have answered by x400 is why hbc are considered as area weapons
as keith pointed out they behave like a freight train (going through everything in a straight line) and to my knowledge a train is no area weapon (although its big) 

anyway - when i found out that raid starships are also immune to area effect weapons i built 54 of them in my game (starting with 6 planets) and they are single handedly trashing the opposition (level 10 hard ais both of them being shadow masters). i am going through their defences like a chainsaw through cardbord armour

i dont think, i know that there is some serious balance issue
and the next guy who gets attacked by 10 or more enemy raid starships class 3 will prove me right too

[Diazo]

Keep in mind that the most important piece of game balance here is the ship caps.

By starting with 6 planets and a 6x ship cap you are pretty much breaking the game.

The raid starships have a low ship cap because they are supposed to be an option if you need to deep strike something, hence their speed and immunities, they are not supposed to be your main attack force.

Because of this, I have no issue with Raid starships being AoE immune, it fits their role.

Missile frigates I'm not sure about. On one hand it keeps the HBC from being the only turret you unlock if they are immune to it, on the other frigates are a unit the AI will always have and this is a big immunity for them.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, 6 homeworlds (or even isn't balance-breaking on its own; it's very similar to playing a 6-player game.  The difference is that the level of coordination of resources is likely to be much higher in a 1-player 6-hw game, whereas all 6 players unlocking all 3 tiers of raid starship and letting one player control them is less likely.

But if a 6-hw force can achieve a solid chokepoint defense (as on a snake map, which I believe Spymine is playing), balance goes largely out the window   We have some plans in work so that certain options will be available to challenge even the most heavily defended players.

In the meantime, it may be that the AI is not being allowed to build enough single-target turrets in a multi-hw game to properly deal with raid starship flocks.

[keith.lamothe]

Missile frigates I'm not sure about. On one hand it keeps the HBC from being the only turret you unlock if they are immune to it, on the other frigates are a unit the AI will always have and this is a big immunity for them.

Yes, it is a big immunity, but it ensures that it is not possible for the humans to create an aoe-only defense, which is important.  Some diversity is mandatory

And since the frigate's attack can be totally shut down by use of counter-missile turrets (particularly large tractor clusters covered by counter-missile stuff), they seem the logical triangle unit to get this.

[Diazo]

Sounds good.

This is not an issue I've run into myself, I'm not defending the warp points themselves in my current game, I'm just sticking an FF on my command station with turrets and a fortress.

(I have zero tractor turrets built.  )

Not going to unlock fortresses next game to see how it goes, they really make defense easier.

D.

[superking]

lol snake maps

[Fruden]

 6 homeworlds test game vs starship commander, i'm not sure i could have successfully handled situations like those in the pictures without the heavy beams causing significant harm to the raid ships, there just isnt another turret that hurts them enough (see pics 1 & 2).

 Also not sure if it's intentional but heavy beams shoot right through avengers causing no damage (see pic 3).

edit: was using version 3.1.7.2

[corfe83]

Yes, I do believe its perfectly realistic and with in science fiction for space crafts to be immune from area affect damage.
BUT, The initial impact of the AoE projectile would deal damage to the target but not damage nearby aoe immune ships.

I agree with Fox Soul.

It also drives me nuts that cruisers are completely immune to heavy beam cannons. I had one chokepoint this weekend where I knocked out all their engines with ion cannons / spider turrets, leaving a bunch of enemy ships near the wormhole. My beam cannons were long enough range that they could fire at the stranded ships, but the stranded ships couldn't fire back. However, they couldn't take out the cruisers, and my close-range turrets couldn't rebuild with the cruisers there, so I ended up having to move my bombers in from another planet to take them out.

Can we make the cruisers just have really good defense against them (i.e. heavy beam cannons can at least scratch the paint on cruisers), rather than being COMPLETELY immune?

[snrub_guy]

Why not just have a few of your normal already-unlocked turrets on your wormhole defence? It's not like they cost much, and you don't need to spend knowledge. I just don't see the problem here? And I agree, being able to go AOE only would be bad for balance.

[carlosjuero]

Indeed - MK I MLRS work fine against frigates, as do Basic Turret MK I. May take a little while to wittle down the health on higher MK frigates, but they die. AoE penalties don't apply to minefields I don't think either [could be wrong] - so you could position some of them over the wormhole.

Why not just have a few of your normal already-unlocked turrets on your wormhole defence? It's not like they cost much, and you don't need to spend knowledge. I just don't see the problem here? And I agree, being able to go AOE only would be bad for balance.

[orzelek]

I'm actually quite ok with the idea of aoe immunity - but I think that Beam cannons shouldn't be treated as aoe weapons in that regard. Similarly beam frigates should also not be treated as an aoe weapon. Both of these are concentrated beams so they are very far from real aoe effect.

Also the whole idea of most powerful beam around being unable to cut through a measly frigate is not exactly easy to justify with any means.

[Spymine]

Well, 6 homeworlds (or even isn't balance-breaking on its own; it's very similar to playing a 6-player game.  The difference is that the level of coordination of resources is likely to be much higher in a 1-player 6-hw game, whereas all 6 players unlocking all 3 tiers of raid starship and letting one player control them is less likely.

But if a 6-hw force can achieve a solid chokepoint defense (as on a snake map, which I believe Spymine is playing), balance goes largely out the window  We have some plans in work so that certain options will be available to challenge even the most heavily defended players.

In the meantime, it may be that the AI is not being allowed to build enough single-target turrets in a multi-hw game to properly deal with raid starship flocks.

dead wrong - its a complex map with 120 planets and i have three chokepoints

and anyway - it would also work with 3 or 4 plants (respective 27 or 36 raiders) - the raid starship is way overpowered which makes level 10 "Doom" like a walk in the park

in another game with version 3.000 i encounter about 100 leeches, 70 raider and 50 spires on every planet - i dont know if that can still happen in 3.188 - but if you think that its unfair if i use 54 raiders guess what will happen if you are the target of above starship group

@ superking: you have anything against snake maps - or are you so easy to entertain
i did notice that simple minds are ....

@dazio: i do think that the incommings are also more numerous the more planets you have - atm i have on average 10k waves
if its not coupled with player planets then we have another balance issue - you can then adress this to keith

Ohhh - and to everyone who gave constructive comments - thank you
This thread is not about what level i am playing or how many planets I play - that is MY choice and you can keep critcism concerning that topic somewhere i cant read it

Its about either changing the frigging description of the HBC (which i think is wrong) or taking the HBC out of the AoE group (at least the level 1 turret - and which i think is the correct thing to do) - especially regarding starship commander ais (thanks fruden)

[keith.lamothe]

@ superking: you have anything against snake maps - or are you so easy to entertain
i did notice that simple minds are ....

Superking's comment was very terse and unhelpful, but yours actually crosses the line into a personal attack.  Please maintain reasonable decorum or I will have to do it for you, probably including a locking of this thread.

Anyway, I don't think the current situation with HBCs and aoe immunities is ideal, but it's also not a serious balance problem.  3.189 is basically ready to be pushed out, and we've started on the unity port so non-critical stuff will have to wait until after that's to the point where there's a Unity prerelease without any critical bugs.