Author Topic: Missing AI Units  (Read 1739 times)

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 11:02:06 AM »
Aptly put.
For me, browsing this wiki is like player Pokemon Go. I can find and capture new words!

I should go in and hide some good ones, like "suzerainty."

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2016, 11:33:32 AM »
Aptly put.
For me, browsing this wiki is like player Pokemon Go. I can find and capture new words!

I should go in and hide some good ones, like "suzerainty."
Be careful, there is many words with Latin root that are more common in French than in English. Sometimes, when you see me employ an unusual English word, it might because there is a common French word very close to it. Maybe "manoeuver" is one of them (as in "tactical manoeuver").
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 12:14:20 PM »
Kahuna, I would like to hear you opinion on that "cap < 10 = Starship" proposed design rule. As I would like to hear every long-time players' opinions too.
That could be good. Then the AI probably wouldn't get so many of those low ship cap fleet ships since it would treat them as starships. But if that was done I think their stats and costs should be updated to make them a bit more like the current starships.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:28:07 PM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Toranth

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2016, 01:41:33 PM »
Kahuna, I would like to hear you opinion on that "cap < 10 = Starship" proposed design rule. As I would like to hear every long-time players' opinions too.
That could be good. Then the AI probably wouldn't get so many of those low ship cap fleet ships since it would treat them as starships. But if that was done I think their stats and costs should be updated to make them a bit more like the current starships.
Yeah.  Right now, I'd much rather face a a cap of Mk IV Blade Spawners than a cap of Mk IV Flagships, and Flagship is usually one of the least threatening starships.  If all the low-cap ships were buffed to be (cap-for-cap) the same as starships, it'd be interesting... but starships are (sort of) designed to serve a slightly different purpose.

IIRC, Starships all do less damage, but have more hitpoints, than equivalent fleetship caps.  So, they focus on toughness and survivability in a few hulls, at the price of higher Energy and Metal costs.  This is also why they have so many more immunities than fleetships.  If the low-cap fleetships were to become the offensive versions of starships, maybe?  That'd be more rebalancing than otherwise needed, though.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2016, 02:01:04 PM »
Right now, I'd much rather face a a cap of Mk IV Blade Spawners than a cap of Mk IV Flagships
Yes but because of the way the game works the AI would probably send like 3 or 4 (or more) caps of blade spawners for every capfull of flagships.

IIRC, Starships all do less damage, but have more hitpoints, than equivalent fleetship caps.  So, they focus on toughness and survivability in a few hulls, at the price of higher Energy and Metal costs.  This is also why they have so many more immunities than fleetships.  If the low-cap fleetships were to become the offensive versions of starships, maybe?  That'd be more rebalancing than otherwise needed, though.
Yep I did some math once and I concluded that low-ship-cap-high-health-ships in general are tend to be more effective than swarmers because they have so much health. Swarmers have very little health and every time one is destroyed the overall dps drops. High health ships keep their full cap dps longer so they tend to be more effective. The higher the mark the better.

So in that sense turning low-ship-cap-fleetships into starships and buffing their stats to be more like the current starships would be a bad idea. I guess it would depend on how (or if at all) their stats were changed.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:15:22 PM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2016, 07:45:09 PM »
By the way, the AI does not get Lightning Torpedo Frigates, but that Design Backup isn't just there for you to hack; if there are Neinzul Hybrid Hives in play, they CAN recruit LTPs as escorts in that case. 

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Missing AI Units
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2016, 02:16:29 AM »
So in that sense turning low-ship-cap-fleetships into starships and buffing their stats to be more like the current starships would be a bad idea. I guess it would depend on how (or if at all) their stats were changed.
That fleetship / starship balance is interesting. However, there is a niche for long-range, fragile starships: the Neinzul Enclave Starship and NCC. Blade Spawners and TDLs may join that niche with absolutely no rebalance. They are already immune to Ion and reclamation; they would be targetable by OMD (and I feel they already must).

Hm, well, the topic already derailed into "starshipness discussion". Bah, so be it.

Some data:

Cap 5 fleetships:
  • Powerslaver
  • Spire Blade Spawner
  • Spire Maw
  • Spire Railcluster
  • Spire Stealth Battleship
  • Spire Tractor Platform

Cap 8 fleetships:
  • Lightning Torpedo Frigate
  • Tackle Drone Launcher
  • Zenith Medic Frigate
  • Zenith Reprocessor

Just above in the cap ramp, there is the Zenith Siege Engine, at 16, then the next ships are at 19. It's a shame because ZSEngines are largely overused by the AI. Might their stats be doubled and cap halved to pass below the cap-10 bar? But wouldn't that make them too similar to the Plasma Starship? Well, they are a special case.

For the other cap<10 ships, we have 3 drone spawners and 2 swallowers. The Spire Railcluster, Stealth Battleship and Tractor Platform: they seem to align with that low firepower and high survivability; also they have each a very distinct perk that no starship have. For me, they are all good to go in the starship category without more than a few more immunities in exchange for OMD targetability. The Zenith Medic Frigate, while more fragile, still have a special perk no starship have. This one might get increased cost and survivability, but I would also put it in the starship bag without further modifications.

The Zenith Reprocessor, however... Well, I would have better seen that perk at higher cap, somewhere around 25. Or at true starship cap, with a stat-design similar to the Leech. I don't really know what to do with this one.

Anyway, beside the Siege Engine and Reprocessor, what do you guys think of that? 3 drone spawners, 2 swallowers, 3 specialized tanks and the Medic. Sounds like a good addition to the "bonus" starship crew, isn't it?
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!