Mantis Protocall Question

[zebramatt]

This is by no means a suggestion, simply something which occurred to me during this discussion, but I had a novel (and massively unusable) notion about a sort of player controlled warp gate which paralleled the AIs' - warping ships onto the other side of worm holes.

Now wouldn't that be something? 

[x4000]

OH, I see. That makes more sense. However, The thing I am concerned about is it working cross planet, especially if the damaged fleet is currently going through a wormhole, where should the rally point go, and if it is far enough away, will it update the ralling ship's target to get to the fleet, so as to make sure that the ships dont arrive on the previous planet the fleet visited, when they move to the next one.

...This is why the control-group-specific warp gate has to be mobile.  So you take it with your fleet, and it is invincible and invisible.  If your fleet is actively rebuilding ships, you may want to wait for them to finish and un-paralyze before you move to attack the next target.  Otherwise, you'll want to go back and get those ships later, but at least they will be nearby.

-No, I used warp gates, I know that the warp gates are not paralyzed, the ships are, hence why a mobile warp gate would leave a stream of ships behind it, unless it tractor-ed them, or transported them while warping in.

I know you know, I was talking to Keith on those three because I think he misunderstood.

[keith.lamothe]

Nope, nothing needed on factories with the thing Keith and I were saying -- simply putting factories into a control group would make them work for that control group and nothing else.  Which would be fine, since if they kicked in at all it was because players set up CTRLS options, so they were intending to use the feature.

OH, I see. That makes more sense. However, The thing I am concerned about is it working cross planet, especially if the damaged fleet is currently going through a wormhole, where should the rally point go, and if it is far enough away, will it update the ralling ship's target to get to the fleet, so as to make sure that the ships dont arrive on the previous planet the fleet visited, when they move to the next one.

Well, it's not going to perfect in all those edge cases.  If you really want to not have anything warping in on the wrong planet then just wait until all the "backlog" construction is done and then make your move.  Or pause the docks.  I think any "first attempt" on our part to solve the general problem of making "bringing up your reinforcements" a much more automated and smooth experience is not going to cover all these cases and we'll just have to see from testing and further thinking how to deal with those (if they wind up needing dealing with). 

The key with so many of these things is to start small and iterate

[Nalgas]

So, uh, what's the cost for this that keeps it from being ridiculously, brokenly powerful?  I don't just get to magically, instantaneously, and continuously teleport my ships into any arbitrary AI system across the galaxy from any arbitrary number of space docks, fabricators, factories, etc. for free, right?  Because that just seems like "1) Send in enough ships (varies by system) to prevent the AI from killing the reinforcements before their stun wears off 2) Win the game".

If you (ab)use that ability properly, it could shift things dramatically in favor of the human player in some situations.  Yes, it's a bit of a resource drain to do lots of suicide runs, but the sheer number of ships it frees up to use for other things is kind of crazy.  Another silly thought: Can paralyzed ships coming out of warp gates be cloaked?  Heh.

[keith.lamothe]

Because that just seems like "1) Send in enough ships (varies by system) to prevent the AI from killing the reinforcements before their stun wears off 2) Win the game".

That is a good point: even 60 seconds may not be long enough for the AI to clear out a really big swarm of mass-produced player ships.  But making the delay even longer kind of removes the point (convenience).  So perhaps the AI would need some kind of special response if you were literally warping in ships out of the blue rather than reinforcing an active fleet.  This is one reason I tend towards having it not be perma-cloaked/blind but rather a destructible ship: if you can get it deep into AI territory then good for you.

Anyway, something to be thinking about.

[Commiesalami]

The proposed fix would also remedy the lack of a warp gate for the Rebel Colony.  I'm fine with that

[Ranakastrasz]

Its currently 60 seconds on your planets, 120 on enemy planets. How about 180 seconds if the gate is not in supply?

[keith.lamothe]

I'm just not fond of making players wait 3 minutes for much of anything

[Ranakastrasz]

I'm just not fond of making players wait 3 minutes for much of anything

Indeed. Then I suppose instead make ships warping in take 4x as much damage, if out of supply, but take just 2 minutes to warp

[keith.lamothe]

I'm just not fond of making players wait 3 minutes for much of anything

Indeed. Then I suppose instead make ships warping in take 4x as much damage, if out of supply, but take just 2 minutes to warp

Not fond of adding a new vulnerability mechanic either but that's far more viable to me.  Though I think it would just "raise the bar" on just how much crazy production you would have to pour into your "reach out and crush someone" attack to anywhere in the galaxy.

But yea, something along those lines.

[Ranakastrasz]

I'm just not fond of making players wait 3 minutes for much of anything

Indeed. Then I suppose instead make ships warping in take 4x as much damage, if out of supply, but take just 2 minutes to warp

Not fond of adding a new vulnerability mechanic either but that's far more viable to me.  Though I think it would just "raise the bar" on just how much crazy production you would have to pour into your "reach out and crush someone" attack to anywhere in the galaxy.

But yea, something along those lines.

Well, I could ask why engineers take 4x damage on hostile planets, and why T2 engineers are just enlarged T1 engineers, while T3 suddenly have cloak AND teleport.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, I could ask why engineers take 4x damage on hostile planets

Right, that's the mechanic that sprung to mind as the most closely related, but it definitely wouldn't cover this case: that's static based on ship type (engineer) and planet owner (AI).  What we'd be adding here would have no relation to ship type, and would also have relation to a special status (warp paralysis).

, and why T2 engineers are just enlarged T1 engineers, while T3 suddenly have cloak AND teleport.

Why not?

[Ranakastrasz]

Well, I could ask why engineers take 4x damage on hostile planets

Right, that's the mechanic that sprung to mind as the most closely related, but it definitely wouldn't cover this case: that's static based on ship type (engineer) and planet owner (AI).  What we'd be adding here would have no relation to ship type, and would also have relation to a special status (warp paralysis).

Good point. It is quite different.

, and why T2 engineers are just enlarged T1 engineers, while T3 suddenly have cloak AND teleport.

Why not?

Well, If you want a serious improvement in engineers, you have to buy tech 2 AND tech 3, rather than before, where T2 was an improvement, via teleport, and T3 was then almost invulnerable, due to cloak. If I want more engineering capacity than I can fit in my supply cap, then in that case, I may only unlock T2.

Question, What do the Experimental Engineers do, I saw a fabricator in a game, but never managed to capture it.

[Commiesalami]

Question, What do the Experimental Engineers do, I saw a fabricator in a game, but never managed to capture it.

They work really fast and self regen pretty quick according to memory

[Ranakastrasz]

Question, What do the Experimental Engineers do, I saw a fabricator in a game, but never managed to capture it.

They work really fast and self regen pretty quick according to memory

I meant more like did they have any extra abilities, that make them different from a scaled up T1 engineer.