Mantis Protocall Question

[keith.lamothe]

The warp gates can be placed whereever, though they can't go through wormholes. However, like a rally post they can be given an order to anywhere.

But it's true, we might need some new unit that is called something like a "fleet rally warp gate."  And normally that warp gate does nothing, ever.  But when it is assigned to a control group, then any ships that are created from any structure also sharing that control group come out of that specific gate.

Yea, that's exactly what I have in mind.

And I guess we could make that into something like a weak starship, so that it could go through wormholes and sit on the edge of battles, etc.

Either that or a blind/perma-cloaked thing.  But perhaps something "shootable" would be better and would avoid cheeses like the player warping stuff in wherever due to their "immortal cursor".  That way the initial "break-in" fight for a system would involve being careful to not get your warp-gates shot up, and after that they can probably hang back and be ok.

That would really kill any need for player beachheads, but we're basically there already.

There is that, and I had been thinking more of a cross-galaxy rally post rather than a warp gate, but a warp gate would really be way more convenient (iirc warp gates cause a brief paralysis to the warped units, but at least they're there), and that way it works equally well for slower ships as faster ones.  There are probably ways to keep the beachhead thing, though the only things that come to mind are kind of complicated.  To some extent "setting up the beachhead" is "getting your warp gates to a safe place".

[Ranakastrasz]

Sigh.  Here's a summary:

1. At present, it is already trivial to automatically create and add any ships to any control group.  Just add the dock creating them to the control group(s) you want them to be in.

2. However, at present there is no way to tell a dock to STOP producing ships if the control group already has enough ships.

3. Also, there is no way to selectively give just one control group global warp-gate-style rally points.  Right now the warp gates are global per type of constructor.  The new proposed warp gates above would make it so that they are overriding all the per-constructor types of warp gates for anything matching their control group.

I didn't know whether or not factories added ships to their control group. I don't know of any RTS that does that, so I assumed that AI war did not either. However, Considering that AI war already has a ton of ideas that I don't think I have seen anywhere else, namely the anti-micromanagement options, I should not make assumptions like that.

If you had a control group (including a factory) selected, would that cause the factory to place it's rally point wherever you order a move command?

Yes, it includes parasites and viral shredders.

In terms of having a fleet rally point, you'd want the new ships to be able to gather on or near the planet you are attacking or defending, but in a safe space.  Having new ships constantly popping directly into battle would definitely be bad for many reasons, balance-wise and otherwise.

(Do you mean fleet warp gate?)
True, unless it is the AI, allowing new ships to instantly engage in battle would extend the *home ground advantage* to cover most of the galaxy, hence I imagine why the stun being part of the warp-gate tech.

[x4000]

Keith, I think we're in the same place there.  Cross-galaxy rally posts are no good, though, because mark IV or higher factories, etc, might be on really remote systems.  And the warp gates of the player in general have been set up to avoid ever needing long travel times of cross-galaxy rally posts.  But yeah, having it be a weak sort of mobile thing that you have to be careful and protect would be good.

Then again, having it be shootable would cause the problem that suddenly you have ships that are stranded way across the galaxy when it dies, and you can't warp ships that are already created.  So that means that it has to be that "immortal cursor" to be able to really function properly, otherwise we have players constantly scrapping ships on the wrong end of the galaxy to then get them to the right end, and frustrations with ships being everywhere from your fleet, etc.

So the cursor would need to be invincible, but then the paralysis time would just be what is really needed in order to prevent players cheesing it.  That way if they are warping into a firefight, they just sit there paralyzed and die, so players should be building a beachhead or at least some protected standoff point for reinforcements, anyhow.

[x4000]

I didn't know whether or not factories added ships to their control group. I don't know of any RTS that does that, so I assumed that AI war did not either. However, Considering that AI war already has a ton of ideas that I don't think I have seen anywhere else, namely the anti-micromanagement options, I should not make assumptions like that.

If you had a control group (including a factory) selected, would that cause the factory to place it's rally point wherever you order a move command?

SupCom and some others also do the same thing.  And yes, any orders you give the factory cause the ships that come out to also get those orders.  But there is no way to "select a control group" in a global sense.  You can only ever select ships on one planet at a time, so if you have ships from one control group on multiple planets, you can only give orders to the part of them on the planet you are currently at.

[Ranakastrasz]

The warp gates can be placed whereever, though they can't go through wormholes. However, like a rally post they can be given an order to anywhere.

But it's true, we might need some new unit that is called something like a "fleet rally warp gate."  And normally that warp gate does nothing, ever.  But when it is assigned to a control group, then any ships that are created from any structure also sharing that control group come out of that specific gate.

Yea, that's exactly what I have in mind.

Issue with that would be that unless the ships are not stunned, or stunned and tractor-ed by the warp gate for the duration of the *warp in*, you would probably leave a train of stunned ships behind your mobile fleet if it is taking any losses. That is why I am not of the opinion that a mobile warp gate is such a good idea. Although, having to charge for 60 seconds of being immobile would partly fix that, make it wait until it stops moving before the warp-in starts.

And I guess we could make that into something like a weak starship, so that it could go through wormholes and sit on the edge of battles, etc.

Either that or a blind/perma-cloaked thing.  But perhaps something "shootable" would be better and would avoid cheeses like the player warping stuff in wherever due to their "immortal cursor".  That way the initial "break-in" fight for a system would involve being careful to not get your warp-gates shot up, and after that they can probably hang back and be ok.

And to set up a force-field beachhead, to keep the probably fragile warpgate alive.

That would really kill any need for player beachheads, but we're basically there already.

There is that, and I had been thinking more of a cross-galaxy rally post rather than a warp gate, but a warp gate would really be way more convenient (iirc warp gates cause a brief paralysis to the warped units, but at least they're there), and that way it works equally well for slower ships as faster ones.  There are probably ways to keep the beachhead thing, though the only things that come to mind are kind of complicated.  To some extent "setting up the beachhead" is "getting your warp gates to a safe place".

Yep, warp gates are quite convenient, but setting up a fleet shield around your beachhead wormhole is probably a good idea anyway, as a 2 minute stun would make the ships vulnerable for that duration.

[x4000]

The benefit of mobile is not that you want it right in the middle of battle, but that you can move it to your actual battle planet without requiring it to be scrapped and rebuilt by a mobile builder every time, which gets quite tedious.

[Ranakastrasz]

Keith, I think we're in the same place there.  Cross-galaxy rally posts are no good, though, because mark IV or higher factories, etc, might be on really remote systems.  And the warp gates of the player in general have been set up to avoid ever needing long travel times of cross-galaxy rally posts.  But yeah, having it be a weak sort of mobile thing that you have to be careful and protect would be good.

Then again, having it be shootable would cause the problem that suddenly you have ships that are stranded way across the galaxy when it dies, and you can't warp ships that are already created.  So that means that it has to be that "immortal cursor" to be able to really function properly, otherwise we have players constantly scrapping ships on the wrong end of the galaxy to then get them to the right end, and frustrations with ships being everywhere from your fleet, etc.

So the cursor would need to be invincible, but then the paralysis time would just be what is really needed in order to prevent players cheesing it.  That way if they are warping into a firefight, they just sit there paralyzed and die, so players should be building a beachhead or at least some protected standoff point for reinforcements, anyhow.

Hmm. I see what you mean in how complex the situation is. I think my base idea might work better after all, being that it was basically to make idle factories automatically produce ships that a control group needs, but only if the whole control group is on the planet.

The benefit of mobile is not that you want it right in the middle of battle, but that you can move it to your actual battle planet without requiring it to be scrapped and rebuilt by a mobile builder every time, which gets quite tedious.

Good point. I would say force it to recharge for 60 seconds like a repair station thingy, but the 60-120 second stun means that is not really necessary.

[x4000]

I think Keith and my thing is actually basically done at this stage, it's a workable idea at this point.

In terms of your thing with idle factories, that requires easily twice as much code, because we have to adjust factories with a lot of new conditional logic plus making them able to build stuff not in their build queues presumably (wow that would be hard to code and confusing for players), and it would still require a way of setting "what should be in this control group."  And it's the sort of thing that would sneak up on players that might put ships into a control group without knowing about this mechanic, and then suddenly idle factories are spending resources building ships without a build queue and their economy is tanking and they are filing bug reports, etc, etc.

This is why it is so complex to do features like this, because we have to consider not only the people who will use it, but the people who will not.  And make it as clear and usable on all ends as possible.

[Ranakastrasz]

I think Keith and my thing is actually basically done at this stage, it's a workable idea at this point.

In terms of your thing with idle factories, that requires easily twice as much code, because we have to adjust factories with a lot of new conditional logic plus making them able to build stuff not in their build queues presumably (wow that would be hard to code and confusing for players), and it would still require a way of setting "what should be in this control group."  And it's the sort of thing that would sneak up on players that might put ships into a control group without knowing about this mechanic, and then suddenly idle factories are spending resources building ships without a build queue and their economy is tanking and they are filing bug reports, etc, etc.

This is why it is so complex to do features like this, because we have to consider not only the people who will use it, but the people who will not.  And make it as clear and usable on all ends as possible.

Good point. It would need to be a control option, and perhaps allow a third state for factories, "assist fleet rebuilding", in addition to repeat an linear, I guess.

[keith.lamothe]

Then again, having it be shootable would cause the problem that suddenly you have ships that are stranded way across the galaxy when it dies, and you can't warp ships that are already created.  So that means that it has to be that "immortal cursor" to be able to really function properly, otherwise we have players constantly scrapping ships on the wrong end of the galaxy to then get them to the right end, and frustrations with ships being everywhere from your fleet, etc.

So the cursor would need to be invincible, but then the paralysis time would just be what is really needed in order to prevent players cheesing it.  That way if they are warping into a firefight, they just sit there paralyzed and die, so players should be building a beachhead or at least some protected standoff point for reinforcements, anyhow.

Yea, I suppose that would work.  The only issues I can think of are the player somehow warping the stuff in so far away from the AI ships that the AI doesn't bother them, or warping in warheads (anywhere!) whose purpose is to get destroyed and thus detonate anyway.  But warheads could be non-warpable via the fleet gate, and the "leash" thing is more a matter of not letting the warp gate get that far away.

Issue with that would be that unless the ships are not stunned, or stunned and tractor-ed by the warp gate for the duration of the *warp in*, you would probably leave a train of stunned ships behind your mobile fleet if it is taking any losses. That is why I am not of the opinion that a mobile warp gate is such a good idea. Although, having to charge for 60 seconds of being immobile would partly fix that, make it wait until it stops moving before the warp-in starts.

I thought about the doesn't-work-unless-immobile-for-60-seconds thing but what happens to the ships being produced for that control group while the gate is still charging?  They'd just spit out at their normal spot (either at the dock or the corresponding non-fleet-warp-gate), so your fleet would be fragmented.

And yea, the benefit would be largely in being able to pull your reinforcement ships into the battle quickly, not that they would stick right with the fleet gate (that'd be up to you).  All you'd have to do on your end is hit the control group number again and it'd automatically select all your current and "reinforcement" ships on the planet.

In terms of your thing with idle factories, that requires easily twice as much code, because we have to adjust factories with a lot of new conditional logic plus making them able to build stuff not in their build queues presumably (wow that would be hard to code and confusing for players)

Yea, that is tricky.  I've already got code in there for the "garrison" controls, though, so the concept of "stop building if X ships meet Y condition" already has a foothold.  But the "force mix" is achieved solely by setting a number of ships and setting the ratio implicitly by the build queue of the dock, which isn't a very fine control.  But it's a start.

Good point. It would need to be a control option, and perhaps allow a third state for factories, "assist fleet rebuilding", in addition to repeat an linear, I guess.

I wouldn't think it would need that, I'd say that if the dock is in a control group, and a fleet-gate is also in that control group, everything coming out of that dock warps to that fleet-gate.

[x4000]

Nope, nothing needed on factories with the thing Keith and I were saying -- simply putting factories into a control group would make them work for that control group and nothing else.  Which would be fine, since if they kicked in at all it was because players set up CTRLS options, so they were intending to use the feature.

[x4000]

Boy this is taking up too much time for a feature we're not likely to implement for a few months, but:

1. Yeah, warheads need to be excluded.  New ability on them that prevents them.

2. Presumably these would be set to not function outside of that "can't get out of the transport" range on planets.

3. I think you misunderstood me about the warp gate paralysis thing.  The warp gate is always functional and never gets paralyzed.  But, as with current player warp gates, any ships that come through that warp gate are themselves paralyzed for 60 seconds.  So you'd better protect your ships on that planet, because when they first come through they are just meat for 60 seconds.

[keith.lamothe]

Boy this is taking up too much time for a feature we're not likely to implement for a few months

Agreed   Just a pet-subject of mine, couldn't resist.

[x4000]

No worries.

It's an important topic and I'm glad we have a solution ready for later implementation, but this is why I gave a one-liner response in mantis.  Anything longer invites a massive discussion that I didn't want to get into, heh.

[Ranakastrasz]

Nope, nothing needed on factories with the thing Keith and I were saying -- simply putting factories into a control group would make them work for that control group and nothing else.  Which would be fine, since if they kicked in at all it was because players set up CTRLS options, so they were intending to use the feature.

OH, I see. That makes more sense. However, The thing I am concerned about is it working cross planet, especially if the damaged fleet is currently going through a wormhole, where should the rally point go, and if it is far enough away, will it update the ralling ship's target to get to the fleet, so as to make sure that the ships dont arrive on the previous planet the fleet visited, when they move to the next one.

Boy this is taking up too much time for a feature we're not likely to implement for a few months, but:

1. Yeah, warheads need to be excluded.  New ability on them that prevents them.

2. Presumably these would be set to not function outside of that "can't get out of the transport" range on planets.

3. I think you misunderstood me about the warp gate paralysis thing.  The warp gate is always functional and never gets paralyzed.  But, as with current player warp gates, any ships that come through that warp gate are themselves paralyzed for 60 seconds.  So you'd better protect your ships on that planet, because when they first come through they are just meat for 60 seconds.

-Yep, Exclude warheads, Just like the autoFRD, Roaming nukes anyone? XD

-Agreed. Actually, Did you add the message informing people that ships are out of range, they are slowed, and transports do not function? Also, that radius should probably be visible.

-No, I used warp gates, I know that the warp gates are not paralyzed, the ships are, hence why a mobile warp gate would leave a stream of ships behind it, unless it tractor-ed them, or transported them while warping in.

No worries.

It's an important topic and I'm glad we have a solution ready for later implementation, but this is why I gave a one-liner response in mantis.  Anything longer invites a massive discussion that I didn't want to get into, heh.

Whoops, XD
I suppose it didn't work out so well, since I brought it back up. XD